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Thread: TRUMP 2016

  1. #2071
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    This is an article about a university arbitrarily being singled out and legislators attempting to micromanage it, not about removing all funding of all universities in general. So you try again.
    Especially since the argument isn't even "this is a useless class", but rather "this is a class that promotes a political message we don't approve of." This is the very basic definition of censorship.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  2. #2072
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Especially since the argument isn't even "this is a useless class", but rather "this is a class that promotes a political message we don't approve of." This is the very basic definition of censorship.
    You make it sound like this doesn't frequently happen. Imagine if you will a class that taught about how bad black people are and how segregation was the way things were supposed to be. Do you think the state should pay for that kind of class as well?

  3. #2073
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    You make it sound like this doesn't frequently happen. Imagine if you will a class that taught about how bad black people are and how segregation was the way things were supposed to be. Do you think the state should pay for that kind of class as well?
    I would certainly disagree with a university's decision to offer such a "class" but the decision should ultimately be left to the university, not to legislators. A university that offered such a class would probably have to deal with a great deal of negative feedback and negative PR, experience increased difficulties enrolling good students and attracting good academics, risk losing private funding and probably have to spend more money dealing with protests. Not exactly a winning proposition. It would sort itself out.

    Interesting comparison btw. I'm not surprised to learn that you find the problematization of race relations as disturbing as the promotion of segregationism.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  4. #2074
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post

    Interesting comparison btw. I'm not surprised to learn that you find the problematization of race relations as disturbing as the promotion of segregationism.
    I'm not surprised you make outrageous logical leaps.

  5. #2075
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    I'm not surprised you make outrageous logical leaps.
    I understand the utility of the comparison, which is why I did not claim that the comparison is invalid for the purposes of this discussion. I just think it's also an interesting insight into your psyche.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  6. #2076
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    You make it sound like this doesn't frequently happen. Imagine if you will a class that taught about how bad black people are and how segregation was the way things were supposed to be. Do you think the state should pay for that kind of class as well?
    Nice strawman, as usual. It's not the state's role to decide what kind of political message is acceptable. That job is up to the university. Any attempt by the government to pick which courses should not be taught is censorship. Your party is engaging in censorship. Instead of condemning it, you're using a the Russian "whataboutism" strategy. Except, there is no real liberal parallel.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  7. #2077
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Want to start a book burning? You liberals like to do that sort of thing to Twain's novels why not for her?

    EDIT: To be clear not actually talking about liberals burning books
    I hope you understand that burning a few copies of those books isn't going to make them unread. I wish I could get back the time I wasted reading them. That's also not gonna happen.
    Congratulations America

  8. #2078

  9. #2079
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Nice strawman, as usual. It's not the state's role to decide what kind of political message is acceptable. That job is up to the university. Any attempt by the government to pick which courses should not be taught is censorship. Your party is engaging in censorship. Instead of condemning it, you're using a the Russian "whataboutism" strategy. Except, there is no real liberal parallel.
    Indeed I'm sure if a rival college was teaching a "problem with blackness" course then we'd have no criticism of that whatsoever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  10. #2080
    Please reread the bits about the state's role.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  11. #2081
    I read it, I just disagreed with the conclusion. There are plenty of laws where legislatures dictate what can and can't be taught in state-funding education. Take evolution versus divine creationism. The state (rightly) insists on teaching evolution.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  12. #2082
    As someone who's taught in two states, I can assure you that you're wrong. The most a legislature gets involved in a college curriculum is requiring a course covering the politics and/or history of that state. The fact that creationism isn't taught (in bio departments; it is in theology) is because bio faculties don't propose it and the curriculum committee wouldn't approve it.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  13. #2083
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  14. #2084
    Please guide us through your reasoning there.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  15. #2085
    Rand, I take it you don't know the difference between schools and universities?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  16. #2086
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Rand, I take it you don't know the difference between schools and universities?
    Indeed. I had one professor who was very keen on arguing that Climate Science was a sham.

    He then proceeded to immediately disqualify himself because he also argued that Einstein was a*moron (everything in Physics after Newton was to be derided, in fact).

    Later on I discovered a paper of his, bent on disproving the Greenhouse Effect. No, not the anthropogenic part of it. The whole effect.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
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    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  17. #2087
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Rand, I take it you don't know the difference between schools and universities?
    A more important distinction might be between the legal status of distasteful opinions in general vs. that of religion.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  18. #2088
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Indeed. I had one professor who was very keen on arguing that Climate Science was a sham.

    He then proceeded to immediately disqualify himself because he also argued that Einstein was a*moron (everything in Physics after Newton was to be derided, in fact).

    Later on I discovered a paper of his, bent on disproving the Greenhouse Effect. No, not the anthropogenic part of it. The whole effect.
    ..are you talking about school or university here?

    I sincerely hope he wasn't a physics prof.


    In general though he has a point that if we don't want interference like this, we should also accept, say, conservative or Christian universities from getting funding regardless of what they are teaching (assuming they are in line with other criteria). Is that the case in the USA?
    Last edited by Flixy; 12-29-2016 at 05:01 PM.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  19. #2089
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    I kind of regret that I clicked on "View Post". I mean, this right here is probably the pinnacle of libertarian stupidity:

    Private this, private that. I've seen what the private sector is capable of achieving and I'm not impressed. This moronic "Smash everything and let our Golden Calf aka*'Free Market' sort it out!" is kind of the reason why several municipalities over here are*trying*get several areas back from private control.

    Because it turns out*essential good like water are not such a great idea to privatize - price went up in a lot of cases, and quality went down.

    I can also demonstrate that first hand with*my school's newly constructed building -*the amount*of idiocy that has been built into this building is astounding. For instance, we could easily host a U2 concert*because the*company owning our building thought it grand to buy a GrandMA2 and a similarly sized sound controller (both of them amount to ~50K €).

    Yes, you may now proceed to find excuses for the failings of this company. Again, I've seen the private industry several times and have not been especially impressed by their*abilities. You just need to*look at the various banking crisis to see that*private companies are just as capable*of burning*through money as the government.
    I think you have a fairly simplistic and misguided notion of what advantages a free market offers. It certainly does not mean that private organizations, companies, or individuals are immune from making bad decisions. It doesn't protect us from idiotic construction choices, or offer perfect solutions to complex problems. That is not the claim. Free markets offer choices, encourage innovation, and allow for failure. Problems aren't fixed by virtue of decisions made by private actors, problems are fixed because there are consequences for not fixing them, there are alternatives if they don't get fixed, and there is reward for doing so.


    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Quite right, Enoch. We NEED to dismiss any teacher who makes political comments a politician dislikes. It's not any kind of censorship to expect that anyone whose paycheck is somehow derived from state funds will only speak when their speech is in agreement with the local legislative and executive majorities. These people are educating our youth, how can we expect them to be right-thinking if we let them be exposed to something other people in the country might say?
    I am actually sympathetic to this argument. I don't particularly like the idea of politicians determining what political beliefs are or are not acceptable for state employees. It makes me uncomfortable, to say the least. It makes me less uncomfortable when the speech in question is coming from a person performing their job in their official capacity. A teacher who is paid to teach biology should not then decide they want to teach creationism. Likewise if a public school decided they wanted the curriculum to include creationism, I would have few problems with funding being withheld from that school.

    I don't care what is being taught in universities, but I also don't believe universities should receive public funding. If a school accepts public funding then for better or worse they also accept the strings that come along with it.

    I am curious as to where this same outrage is when police officers are fired for privately sharing questionable content, and doing so in an unofficial capacity.

    Loki, is this a case of liberals blatantly attacking free speech?
    Last edited by Enoch the Red; 12-29-2016 at 05:28 PM.

  20. #2090
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    ..are you talking about school or university here?

    I sincerely hope he wasn't a physics prof.
    Theoretical Physics. This guy here in fact: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhar...ich_(Physiker)
    When the stars threw down their spears
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    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  21. #2091
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    I think you have a fairly simplistic and misguided notion of what advantages a free market offers. It certainly does not mean that private organizations, companies, or individuals are immune from making bad decisions. It doesn't protect us from idiotic construction choices, or offer perfect solutions to complex problems. That is not the claim. Free markets offer choices, encourage innovation, and allow for failure. Problems aren't fixed by virtue of decisions made by private actors, problems are fixed because there are consequences for not fixing them, there are alternatives if they don't get fixed, and there is reward for doing so.
    And all too often, the ones doing the fixing are not the ones who caused the whole mess in the first place. And the ones who caused those catastrophes walk away scot free with a wad of cash in their pockets.

    If those CEOs were held personally responsible for the catastrophic damages done, you could be sure as hell that none of that shit would have ever had happened.

    We're seeing that with VW over here (just like you did with your banks, BP and the others) - none of the managers are in jail, yes, they may be out of a job but, hey, the golden parachute makes sure that they're leading very comfortable lives.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  22. #2092
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    And all too often, the ones doing the fixing are not the ones who caused the whole mess in the first place. And the ones who caused those catastrophes walk away scot free with a wad of cash in their pockets.

    If those CEOs were held personally responsible for the catastrophic damages done, you could be sure as hell that none of that shit would have ever had happened.

    We're seeing that with VW over here (just like you did with your banks, BP and the others) - none of the managers are in jail, yes, they may be out of a job but, hey, the golden parachute makes sure that they're leading very comfortable lives.
    I don't think I'd necessarily dispute anything you wrote there. I take a fairly dim opinion of most C level executives in major companies, and would doubt that many of them are receiving pay commensurate to their value to the company. I too would encourage companies to move away from pay packages with golden parachutes, and I'm not opposed to them facing criminal charges when and if it is appropriate.

  23. #2093
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    ..are you talking about school or university here?

    I sincerely hope he wasn't a physics prof.


    In general though he has a point that if we don't want interference like this, we should also accept, say, conservative or Christian universities from getting funding regardless of what they are teaching (assuming they are in line with other criteria). Is that the case in the USA?
    There was a physics professor at Illinois (top 10 program in the country) who kept on giving talks on creationism...
    Hope is the denial of reality

  24. #2094
    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    I don't care what is being taught in universities, but I also don't believe universities should receive public funding. If a school accepts public funding then for better or worse they also accept the strings that come along with it.
    BS. Telling colleges which classes not to teach is not part of the strings attached.

    I am curious as to where this same outrage is when police officers are fired for privately sharing questionable content, and doing so in an unofficial capacity.

    Loki, is this a case of liberals blatantly attacking free speech?
    Are you seriously equating making racist comments with teaching a course approved by the university? Seriously? The police officer is getting fired for doing something that any private sector equivalent worker would get fired for.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  25. #2095
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Are you seriously equating making racist comments with teaching a course approved by the university? Seriously? The police officer is getting fired for doing something that any private sector equivalent worker would get fired for.
    No I believe he's sanctioning racist comments with actually sanctioning a racist course. The fact the racist course has been approved by the university is the controversy not just the fact it was taught once approved. Again I'd like to see any equivalent "problems with blackness" course sanctioned in the 21st century.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  26. #2096
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    BS. Telling colleges which classes not to teach is not part of the strings attached.
    I think people who have their hand out typically have very little say over what strings come attached.

    Are you seriously equating making racist comments with teaching a course approved by the university? Seriously? The police officer is getting fired for doing something that any private sector equivalent worker would get fired for.
    So as long as racism and racist courses are university approved then any attempt to remove public funding is violating free speech. However, if a public sector employee makes racist comments as a private citizen, and not in their official capacity, then they should definitely lose their job, is that right? You don't see the contradiction here?

  27. #2097
    That is not an equivalent example. A more equivalent example would be for the government to withdraw funding from every police department in the US for engaging in racist practices. This is instead an example of a single individual showing himself to be singularly unfit by doing things that clearly undermine the public's trust in both him and his employer. That said, there is one similarity. The legislature does not generally go around threatening to defund police departments unless they fire specific people. They can exert other forms of pressure but in the end it's left to the discretion of those who're directly in charge of the police's employment-related decisions.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  28. #2098
    Bullshit. Show me one Police department in the USA running a public and overt "problem with blackness" seminar please.

    If any were then damn right the legislature should get involved.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  29. #2099
    Maybe you should take a closer look at the seminar in question and then take a close look at the real racism endorsed by American police before saying extremely stupid things RB. Then again you were pretty clueless about the problem of racism in US law enforcement the last time we tried to have this discussion so maybe there's just no point in trying again.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  30. #2100
    People who don't agree with you are not clueless. Find me an equivalently racist "problems with blackness" seminar and we can talk again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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