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Thread: This week on The Imperial Presidency: break the law for me and I'll pardon you

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  1. #1
    To the best of my knowledge, the position being advanced in defense of Congress not being able to compel those two figures to testify is on grounds which the courts have never considered directly before. It is different from the Nixon precedents you're thinking of (which were about compelling the White House to hand over taped recordings of conversations).

    One possible source of confusion is that the closest precedents here arise from another, completely different and much later case where Nixon was a party, one from 1982 where he was being sued in civil court for actions he ordered as President. The claim being made then (and here) is that the President has an "absolute immunity" from being compelled to provide testimony about their actions as POTUS. In 1982, SCOTUS ruled the President did have an absolute immunity against being compelled to provide testimony in civil court about their actions as President. The question of whether the same immunity applies to testifying before Congress has not been addressed (one could argue either way, particularly wrt impeachment proceedings). A related ruling to that one addressed the topic of whether that absolute immunity applied to the President's closest/senior advisors. SCOTUS ruled against that claim then.

    Again, whether that applies to testimony before Congress has not been addressed but if stare decisis were being followed it is rather unlikely to go the White House's way here wrt the advisors. It is, however, entirely possible that the courts will just punt it as nonjusticiable and say "this is really something Congress and the White House should be working out themselves via the negotiation and accommodation process, not a matter for the courts at this time." Dragging the courts into it is also in all likelihood a delaying tactic. The cases can easily take longer to work their way through the court system than Pelosi et al are willing to let the impeachment proceedings themselves take to finish. In which case the cases will get kicked because there is no longer an active question (and hence justiciable controversy) before the court and those plaintiffs will have managed to skin out of testifying.

    Someone does not have to show up to claim Executive Privilege. In fact, EP is usually claimed on their behalf by the White House. You do have to show up to plead the 5th, but that's a very different matter legally speaking.
    Last edited by LittleFuzzy; 11-02-2019 at 06:27 AM.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    ...In 1982, SCOTUS ruled the President did have an absolute immunity against being compelled to provide testimony in civil court about their actions as President. The question of whether the same immunity applies to testifying before Congress has not been addressed (one could argue either way, particularly wrt impeachment proceedings). A related ruling to that one addressed the topic of whether that absolute immunity applied to the President's closest/senior advisors. SCOTUS ruled against that claim then.
    Key words being civil court and actions as President? I think the confusion is because Trump had legal problems during the campaign (before being president)...but his legal team treats everything as absolute immunity or EP, including impeachment.

    ...Dragging the courts into it is also in all likelihood a delaying tactic. The cases can easily take longer to work their way through the court system than Pelosi et al are willing to let the impeachment proceedings themselves take to finish. In which case the cases will get kicked because there is no longer an active question (and hence justiciable controversy) before the court and those plaintiffs will have managed to skin out of testifying.
    I was wondering about that. It makes sense for Kupperman to ask the courts for guidance (no one wants to be forced into that pickle). I'm not sure why the judge gave a December court date, unless it's a huge punt like you said.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Key words being civil court and actions as President?
    Wrt a claim of that particular kind of immunity, yes. That does not address immunity or privilege arising elsewhere, though.

    I think the confusion is because Trump had legal problems during the campaign (before being president)...but his legal team treats everything as absolute immunity or EP, including impeachment.
    Well, they're going to make a bunch of claims both true and untrue. Inventing crap out of thin air is practically a signature of the Trump Presidency.


    I was wondering about that. It makes sense for Kupperman to ask the courts for guidance (no one wants to be forced into that pickle). I'm not sure why the judge gave a December court date, unless it's a huge punt like you said.
    Could be. Could also just be when there was room on the docket after providing adequate time for parties to prepare their case. One reason dodges like that work for plaintiffs is how judges here are always swamped with work and how much preparation legal arguments and deliberation require
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Well, they're going to make a bunch of claims both true and untrue. Inventing crap out of thin air is practically a signature of the Trump Presidency.
    Should we be concerned that "crap" has been normalized and adopted by some in the legal field? Seriously, wtf is happening when Trump's lawyers tell a judge (in a tax case) that he could literally shoot someone on 5th Ave. and not be indicted?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Should we be concerned that "crap" has been normalized and adopted by some in the legal field? Seriously, wtf is happening when Trump's lawyers tell a judge (in a tax case) that he could literally shoot someone on 5th Ave. and not be indicted?

    Yes and no. It's specious and wastes time and that is a cause for concern because it is one (albeit just one of many) reasons behind the already-mentioned backlog of work swamping the judicial bench. Beyond that it's not terribly relevant nor a cause for concern. It's not the lawyers' job to thresh the wheat from the chaff, it's their job to advocate for their client. Doing that well may in fact require throwing up a bunch of crap. Throwing out the crap is the job of the judge (aided somewhat by opposing counsel)
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  6. #6
    I'm concerned that lawyers are "advocating" for their client with specious arguments that turn into political "narratives", which turns everything upside down: Witch hunt, Hoax, Fake News, Deep State, Impeachment Sham, etc.

    Trump is also restructuring the judiciary with 'conservatives' who seem to believe in presidential supremacy, while dismantling the institutional trust that's crucial for our republic. In the big picture, this is scary stuff for laypeople (like me), but it's good to know people like you (who are well versed on the law) aren't so worried. I'll hang onto that while holding my breath.

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