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Thread: Zionuts

  1. #631
    Yeah, I saw a bunch of stuff in this vein. Eh, more of the same.

    The BBC has, however, outdone themselves. First with their delightful headline after the attack in Jerusalem on Friday (hardly the first time). But then... oh, this is a nice one:

    http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/2017...food-in-israel

    Let's ignore the wildly incorrect and offensive term 'Jewish food' for a moment. Let's just go with this critique:

    https://www.facebook.com/harold.feld...55132322066293
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  2. #632
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    What's offensive about Jewish food? I mean, Judaism use not just religion but culture, and cuisine is very much a part of a culture. The certainly is food with Jewish roots.

    To be honest I think that if that offends you, you are offended too easily, this exact same thing happens in any country or culture. Go to the Netherlands, there's few places serving traditional dutch food, but I wouldn't be offended by an article about it. In Poland not every restaurant serves pierogi, and in Belgium most waffles stands are in tourist areas because they expect them. Sure an article would be ignorant and "only surprising if you expect a cultural stereotype" but that happens in any article about stuff like this.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  3. #633
    I don't have a problem with Jewish food, I have a problem with the term 'Jewish food', which in America at least (and, apparently, at BBC Travel) fits an incredibly narrow definition of food commonly eaten in certain parts of Eastern Europe a century ago. Jews hail from such diverse places and cultural backgrounds - from which they have picked up a wild variety of cuisines - that to pigeonhole 'Jewish food' as what you'd find at a typical deli in the United States is reductionist in the extreme. It's not even representative of American or European Jewish food, let alone global Jewish cuisine.

    To crib part of the critique, it's akin to using the term 'black food' (problematic to begin with) and then assuming it only means fried chicken and collard greens (and, as the critique says, wonder why they don't serve more of that in Liberia). I think you could understand why that might be offensive, even ignoring the 'cultural appropriation of Palestinian cuisine' angle that adds to the Zionuttery.

    I have cookbooks full of Jewish food - you know, cooked and eaten by actual Jews that have little to nothing in common with the cultural tropes about 'Jewish food'. I won't deny that I eat the occasional bagel or pastrami on rye (who doesn't, Jewish or not?) but that is hardly the sum total of Jewish food.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  4. #634
    SEŃOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    What's offensive about Jewish food? I mean, Judaism use not just religion but culture, and cuisine is very much a part of a culture. The certainly is food with Jewish roots.

    To be honest I think that if that offends you, you are offended too easily, this exact same thing happens in any country or culture. Go to the Netherlands, there's few places serving traditional dutch food, but I wouldn't be offended by an article about it. In Poland not every restaurant serves pierogi, and in Belgium most waffles stands are in tourist areas because they expect them. Sure an article would be ignorant and "only surprising if you expect a cultural stereotype" but that happens in any article about stuff like this.
    It's what happens when you let Westerners write about food

    There's nothing inherently offensive about using terms like "Jewish food" if you make it clear that you understand the complexities and help the reader understand them as well. However, this article reduces the term to refer to just one portion of Israeli culinary and cultural heritage, specifically that portion most familiar to readers in the Anglosphere, who neither know nor care about the other groups that are rendered invisible by this sort of over-simplification (eg. Jews from all over the Middle East). Then there are the political and ideological implications of accusing Israeli Jews of appropriating local cuisine in order to gain the impression of legitimacy while simultaneously trolling Palestinians who, of course, cannot even have a national dish.

    All of this is just stupid and childish. Everyone knows hummus, falafel and shawarma are Swedish foods. I made some earlier this week and my friends eat it regularly. Zionists can go suck on a bagel.

    For another account that may or may not provoke as much millennial Zionist rage as the BBC article, see:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/10/di...-chickpea.html

    (and the referenced material)
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  5. #635
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    What I don't get is why the article repeatedly conflates Ashkenazi food with Ashkenazi-American food. It's like complaining about the lack of General Tso Chicken in China.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  6. #636
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    What I don't get is why the article repeatedly conflates Ashkenazi food with Ashkenazi-American food. It's like complaining about the lack of General Tso Chicken in China.
    Not just that - there's also the ridiculousness of suggesting there's a monolithic 'Ashkenazi', which could include anything from French to Lithuanian Jews with wildly varying cuisines. And the dramatic range of options even in the 'regularized' Ashkenazi-American food.

    I think a big issue in these stories is that it's all about labels, and typically exclusive labels. A single group must 'own' knishes, just as a single group must 'own' falafel - and not only does the food map to a single identity, but that entire identity must map to the food as well (e.g. Israel is the Jewish State so why don't they have 'Jewish food'?). It's reductionist and silly and results in all sorts of pathetic arguments about cultural appropriation that are really rooted in broader narratives that have little to do with food. Italians (or Italian-Americans) don't own pizza any more than Germans own saurkraut or Belgians beer or Russians borscht; and certainly we can agree that pizza doesn't own Italians, etc. It's okay to celebrate culinary invention and borrowing and fusion and popularization without grumbling about appropriation and bastardization. We're all here just to eat and discover good food.

    This problem gets particularly acute with groups that have massive, long established diasporas that obviously have incredibly diverse identities. The ignorance of these writers sometimes appalls me.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  7. #637
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    It's almost as if "travel" writers don't understand the complexities of identity and politics.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  8. #638
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    It's almost as if "travel" writers don't understand the complexities of identity and politics.
    Hey, that's okay if they don't - they just shouldn't then try to write stories about it. Stick to the food.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  9. #639
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Just be thankful they're not running for president.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  10. #640
    SEŃOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Israel's ill-conceived attempt to force Hamas to cover the wall with solar panels seems, entirely unsurprisingly, to have backfired. Unless their plan was to encourage burning diesel all along? Very sinister.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  11. #641
    SEŃOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    http://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-n...E47470B4A8CD10

    Zionists write in invisible ink to hide their nefarious secrets. Hidden among the pages of this remarkable book is the forgotten but bloody history of how Arabs stole falafel and hummus in an attempt to obliterate Israel.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  12. #642
    Here's a great trifecta:


    Dyke March accepting of all people, unless you're Jewish:
    http://www.windycitymediagroup.com/l...ed-/59621.html

    Haaretz being Haaretz:
    http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.797622

    And Friedman giving the usual no-holds-barred critique of some dilettantes:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.752a73842355

    (On this last piece I should mention that I'm frustrated by the exact same behavior of people who go on a brief 'fact finding mission' to Israel funded by AIPAC or whoever and come back talking like they know something. It's hardly limited to groups like BtS, it's just that the moral outrage of these pseudointellectuals is particularly galling.)
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  13. #643
    SEŃOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    I hope you're okay
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  14. #644
    Administrator Dreadnaught's Avatar
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    Came here to post the Dyke March story, but instead I'm going to link to this story in which someone conflated the Grenfell fire with Zionism. In only a loose way: http://www.jpost.com/BDS-THREAT/Al-Q...ionists-497308

  15. #645
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    I sometimes wonder if these kind of people are just too lazy to come up with new slogans.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  16. #646
    In the 'not Zionuts' category, a book by Micah Goodman has been captivating Israel in recent months; he is interviewed (among other places) here:

    http://www.timesofisrael.com/a-gentler-war/

    I read a previous book of Goodman's on a very different theme and was impressed; he was cogent, original and thoughtful without being long winded or pedantic. Can't wait to get a chance to read this latest effort, especially since it seems like every decision maker in Israel has read it - whether they liked it or not. It seems like his pragmatism is making him deeply unpopular at the ideological poles, but he provides some policy suggestions that will probably do a lot of good in the current stalemate. If any of you can read Hebrew, you should probably give it a shot as well.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  17. #647
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    I actually wonder if the Palestinians would accept some of those unilateral concessions precisely because they can be seen as creating a final settlement. In some cases, active Palestinian acceptance might be unnecessary. But in others (like having the Palestinian Authority exert control over a larger part of the West Bank), Abbas can simply refuse (and I think he would refuse). I do agree with the main thrust of his argument: withdraw to easily defensible borders. You're never going to get anything for that withdrawal, so just get on with it. The purpose isn't peace but a more productive use of limited military resources. Withdraw from the smaller settlements and parts of eastern Jerusalem. Reduce the occupation to the smallest degree possible. Israel would ultimately be better off regardless of the Palestinian (or international) response.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  18. #648
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I actually wonder if the Palestinians would accept some of those unilateral concessions precisely because they can be seen as creating a final settlement. In some cases, active Palestinian acceptance might be unnecessary. But in others (like having the Palestinian Authority exert control over a larger part of the West Bank), Abbas can simply refuse (and I think he would refuse).
    I thought similarly, but remember that there have been previous unilateral actions by Israel - including notably from Gaza - that moved territory into PA administration. They didn't refuse then. I also think it would be hard to imagine a circumstance where Abbas could refuse free land from Israel, even if it might prejudice a final status agreement (which is precisely the reason many Israelis would balk at unilateral moves, since it reduces their leverage in future negotiations). Even if it is hard for him to accept, it would be politically challenging to refuse.

    I think some of his other suggestions were solid ones, though, particularly about easing movement between chunks of Area A, stopping all non-bloc building, etc. These are no-brainers that would likely have a lot of support in Israel. The Jerusalem suggestion would be a LOT tougher of a sell.

    The idea of expanding Area A isn't so crazy; we all know what the final blocs are going to look like, and they'll only include a single digit percentage of the West Bank's current territory. Even adding on some of the Jordan Valley for security purposes, there's plenty of remaining Area B/C that could probably be safely transferred to Area A without undue effects on Israeli security. And it would dramatically improve the lives of West Bank Palestinians while the current status quo drags on.

    I also like the idea as viewing this not as a 'confidence building measure' or something explicitly designed at jump-starting peace talks - that kind of logic is not likely to gain much traction in Israel. Rather, it's an attempt to address some of the underlying problems without expecting a final peace agreement any time soon. To an extent, I think Ariel Sharon actually viewed his disengagement in this lens, though Goodman is correct in his analysis about the (illogical) desire to show a withdrawal to the Green Line affecting the security situation.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  19. #649
    In case you're wondering, Loki, this is the kind of thing that concerns me, a lot more than laws that have more to do with posturing than substantive policy. The decision is extremely hard to fathom if one were to believe that all should be treated equally in the eyes of the law. The arguments about deterrent power are particularly challenging to understand (the timing argument is a bit better since it has been used successfully before IIRC in Palestinian defenses). The Israeli Supreme Court has tended to be an important institution that resists populist impulses by right or left wing governments; this is far from their best day, however. If indeed it presages a crumbling of important civic institutions it would be deeply concerning.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  20. #650
    Administrator Dreadnaught's Avatar
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    From the Telegraph in the UK


  21. #651
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/05/t...by-israel.html

    Protesting a play written by one of Israel's most prominent pro-peace activists (and one of its most credible; his son died during IDF service but he is still committed to the purpose of peace). Classy.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  22. #652
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Great response by the Lincoln Center.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  23. #653
    Administrator Dreadnaught's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/05/t...by-israel.html

    Protesting a play written by one of Israel's most prominent pro-peace activists (and one of its most credible; his son died during IDF service but he is still committed to the purpose of peace). Classy.
    You silly fool, you have to fight bigotry by excluding everyone who belongs to a designated-to-be-hated national group. Bigotry will only end when we have wiped their presence off the face of...oh...

  24. #654
    Here's another good one: the Waqf opening up a Jerusalem branch of Pallywood.

    http://www.timesofisrael.com/muslim-...e-middle-east/
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  25. #655
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Outbidding.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  26. #656
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  27. #657
    SEŃOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  28. #658
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Hope is the denial of reality

  29. #659
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    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-i...-idUSKBN1AM0J6

    Careful Reuters, or you'll be next
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  30. #660
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    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/09/w...tigations.html

    More Netanyahu. Doing his best Trump impression.
    Hope is the denial of reality

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