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Thread: Zionuts

  1. #721
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    It's the same as the police here. They're not given orders to do bad things. But some of them are just bad people and will do bad things. Then they're not punished, which pushes even moderately bad people into a bad direction. So orders might not have been given, but they might as well have been given the impunity with which soldiers can do these kind of things.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  2. #722
    Administrator Dreadnaught's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    And meanwhile they're shooting doctors. No one here will be able to persuade me that being shot by a sniper is an accident.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...estinians-gaza
    Why do you believe the Gazan Health Ministry? Hamas lies.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/16/o...-protests.html

    At the end of 2008 I was a desk editor, a local hire in The Associated Press’s Jerusalem bureau, during the first serious round of violence in Gaza after Hamas took it over the year before. That conflict was grimly similar to the American campaign in Iraq, in which a modern military fought in crowded urban confines against fighters concealed among civilians. Hamas understood early that the civilian death toll was driving international outrage at Israel, and that this, not I.E.D.s or ambushes, was the most important weapon in its arsenal.

    Early in that war, I complied with Hamas censorship in the form of a threat to one of our Gaza reporters and cut a key detail from an article: that Hamas fighters were disguised as civilians and were being counted as civilians in the death toll. The bureau chief later wrote that printing the truth after the threat to the reporter would have meant “jeopardizing his life.” Nonetheless, we used that same casualty toll throughout the conflict and never mentioned the manipulation.

    Hamas understood that Western news outlets wanted a simple story about villains and victims and would stick to that script, whether because of ideological sympathy, coercion or ignorance. The press could be trusted to present dead human beings not as victims of the terrorist group that controls their lives, or of a tragic confluence of events, but of an unwarranted Israeli slaughter. The willingness of reporters to cooperate with that script gave Hamas the incentive to keep using it.

  3. #723
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Dread, you're an absolutely despicable human being and I already regret that I read your post.

    You asshole.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  4. #724
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Why do you believe the Gazan Health Ministry? Hamas lies.
    Oddly enough, Hamas didn't lie this time around. Whether by mistake or design, they admitted that 50 of the 62 deaths were Hamas members (PIJ separately claimed 3, bringing the total to 53). Given that there were some 40k+ people there, it confirms Israel's basic story: that lethal live fire was used quite sparingly to protect the border, and the vast majority of the demonstrators were kept back using non-lethal or less-lethal means. That doesn't preclude the inevitability of collateral damage, mistakes, misses, and misidentifications - the situation was quite fluid with exceedingly poor visibility. But 53 out of 62 isn't terrible, all things being equal.

    Khendra, I've chosen not to engage with this until now, but do you honestly think that snipers are perfect? In controlled circumstances, sure, they can be pretty good at the ranges used. But these circumstances were far from controlled. I don't deny the possibility that there were 'bad shoots', where live fire or lethal fire was inappropriately used. It's happened before by the IDF and it will probably happen again. But by and large the evidence suggests that live fire was carefully targeted and lethal targeting was used with a great deal of discretion. Given the evidence, it seems more likely that those who were probably not threats or combatants (e.g. press and doctors and the like) who were injured were the results of mistakes, not targeting.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  5. #725
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Khendra, I've chosen not to engage with this until now, but do you honestly think that snipers are perfect? In controlled circumstances, sure, they can be pretty good at the ranges used. But these circumstances were far from controlled. I don't deny the possibility that there were 'bad shoots', where live fire or lethal fire was inappropriately used. It's happened before by the IDF and it will probably happen again. But by and large the evidence suggests that live fire was carefully targeted and lethal targeting was used with a great deal of discretion. Given the evidence, it seems more likely that those who were probably not threats or combatants (e.g. press and doctors and the like) who were injured were the results of mistakes, not targeting.
    Yes. Strange that a doctor was shot in both his legs by a sniper. You realize that there are also the non-lethal shootings? Also shooting children. Bravo for that. But I'm sure that was an accident, right?

    I also fail to see why snipers are needed at all. This fuckery only shows that Israel is well on its way to become the very thing it was founded against. Both sides are acting absolutely despicable and are part of the problem. BOTH.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  6. #726
    SEŃOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Yes. Strange that a doctor was shot in both his legs by a sniper. You realize that there are also the non-lethal shootings? Also shooting children. Bravo for that. But I'm sure that was an accident, right?

    I also fail to see why snipers are needed at all. This fuckery only shows that Israel is well on its way to become the very thing it was founded against. Both sides are acting absolutely despicable and are part of the problem. BOTH.
    This keeps being brought out triumphantly by IDF apologists as some sort of gotcha, but, as gotchas go, it's not a very good one.

    1. Contrary to popular opinion among right-wing authoritarians and their apologists, being a "member" of Hamas doesn't automatically deprive a person of all his rights under international law, nor does it release soldiers from all their obligations under international law. See this for one analysis among many of the IDF's hilariously post-modern approach to interpreting laws, and why that approach is questionable at best: https://www.justsecurity.org/56346/c...e-gaza-border/

    2. Even if we were to accept the figure as accurate--and we shouldn't, because current figures put casualties at over a hundred--and also accept that that somehow legitimized the killings, the "legitimate" killings must be weighed against the number of injured if you want to make a point about restraint and accuracy. If you kill 50 people but critically injure 300 and injure thousands of others slightly less, you have no plausible claim on accuracy. There's a pervasive myth circulating among apologists about the IDF's character and restraint, but this myth rarely holds up to scrutiny, and the IDF's questionable intent is also exemplified by its unwillingness to adhere to not only international law but also domestic law eg. when it prevents injured from getting necessary care to which they're entitled (see eg. cases of fatalities and amputations that could well have been avoided had the injured been allowed to receive care outside Gaza).
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  7. #727
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    So... these members of Hamas that Israel shot.

    Were they doing any particularly Hamasy things at the time they were shot, or were they just people who were members of Hamas who happened to be protesting, and the Israel Military is retroactively using that to justify shooting them, US police style?

    Because Hamas isn't just a terrorist and/or paramilitary organisation, it also runs the Gaza strip and has a whole social services branch etc.
    If you tolerate this, then your children will be next.

  8. #728
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Well, they were probably walking in a threatening way.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  9. #729
    SEŃOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    So... these members of Hamas that Israel shot.

    Were they doing any particularly Hamasy things at the time they were shot
    Even if they weren't clearly and directly Hamassing it up right next to the border, the Israeli govt. is essentially arguing that there is no such requirement in this situation. See the article I linked to for an overview of their reasoning.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  10. #730
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    So... these members of Hamas that Israel shot.

    Were they doing any particularly Hamasy things at the time they were shot, or were they just people who were members of Hamas who happened to be protesting, and the Israel Military is retroactively using that to justify shooting them, US police style?

    Because Hamas isn't just a terrorist and/or paramilitary organisation, it also runs the Gaza strip and has a whole social services branch etc.
    Hamas is short for young male (US does the same in Afghanistan). It explains the shooting of journalists and doctors.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  11. #731
    SEŃOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/...sson-1.6132770

    Honestly, I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  12. #732
    Administrator Dreadnaught's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Dread, you're an absolutely despicable human being and I already regret that I read your post.

    You asshole.
    Heh, you really are the king of over-the-top responses. The equivalent would be me going to Friends of the Israel Defense Forces and donating in honor of Khendraja'aro. Which I could totally do! But I'm cheap.

    Let's put aside the fact that Hamas lies. Imagine a country on your border with whom you share no language and an ugly history announces they will send 200,000 civilians to your border to cross it and occupy your towns because they aren't happy with borders set in 1945. And they actually do it. Do you really have a realistic solution in which no one will get hurt or possibly killed?

    The position of Gazans is unenviable by any measure. It doesn't mean they are angels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/...sson-1.6132770

    Honestly, I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
    Israel's vague "enemy of my enemyism" is sure opening up "partnerships" that wouldn't have been made a generation ago
    Last edited by Dreadnaught; 05-31-2018 at 12:46 PM.

  13. #733
    SEŃOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Jesus fucking Christ. This is gross:

    https://m.facebook.com/mitvchannel/p...03310709934311

    Yes, this is a post about Israeli assistance for internment camps filled with internally displaced members of persecuted minorities. "returnees" is in reference to the hundreds of thousands of rohingya who fled or were driven out of Myanmar in during the extraordinarily brutal genocidal campaign of ethnic cleansing that resumed last year. Israel's deals with the Tatmadaw (one of the world's most reprehensible military forces) was bad enough. This... ugh.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  14. #734
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Netanyahu is really doing his best to turn the Democrats against Israel.

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...orld-order/amp
    Hope is the denial of reality

  15. #735
    Loki, did you read the same article I did? Because essentially nothing in that piece, other than Bibi's 2015 speech to Congress, supports your statement. I don't deny that the bipartisan consensus in the US regarding Israel has been eroding for some time, and I personally agree that the current administration in Israel is part of the problem, but your link is to a rambling, vaguely conspiratorial and poorly written article saying, more or less, that the Middle East is complicated and that Trump doesn't know what he's doing.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  16. #736
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Other than relying on an incoming president to check the one in office and sharing inappropriate information with the former? And doing so on the basis of paranoia?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  17. #737
    Administrator Dreadnaught's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Netanyahu is really doing his best to turn the Democrats against Israel.

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...orld-order/amp
    The New Yorker is doing its best to turn the Democrats against Israel.

  18. #738
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Thank you for that valuable contribution Kellyanne Conway.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  19. #739
    Administrator Dreadnaught's Avatar
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    Hah. Going back to the 2012 Democratic convention it's become clear that the Democratic delegate muscle was moving away from certain positions considered by many to be pro-Israel. Trump has little to do with it, except in that he will not bother much with the Palestinian question.

    The substance of the New Yorker article is thin, trying to imply that Trump is doing things like pulling out of the Iran deal because of Israel. I'm confident Trump's view on the Iran deal didn't much consider Israel until his son-in-law mentioned it. Trump generally doesn't seem to make those kinds of connections on his own.

    Source: Apparently I'm Kellyanne Conway.

  20. #740
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    You're blaming the reaction to Israel's hyper-partisan policies, rather than blaming the policies themselves.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  21. #741
    Administrator Dreadnaught's Avatar
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    I would call many of Israel's policies ill-informed. But I don't think their US relations are deliberately hyper-partisan as much as the US political consensus is splitting on this issue (as on many others).

  22. #742
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    Right, like going to speak in front of Congress to spite Obama. Seriously, Dread.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  23. #743
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Nothing to see here.

    Hope is the denial of reality

  24. #744
    SEŃOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    You have to understand that this presents a unique challenge in Israel. In the US the guards could've just wrapped the door handles in bacon.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  25. #745
    http://www.newsweek.com/iran-general...clouds-1005190


    Every now and then it's good to remember the utter ridiculousness of antisemitism.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  26. #746
    SEŃOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    They're being kept in cloud banks.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  27. #747
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    I wonder who'd believe such a madman. Oh.

    Hope is the denial of reality

  28. #748
    Loki, you might find this article interesting. The basic dynamic described here (about yet another bill that on its surface offends democratic sensibilities) is pretty common to a lot of your critique about encroachment of illiberal democracy under the current government. I think it's a terrible way to run a government, it does a real disservice to the country that has some very real and pressing issues to address, but it is mostly smoke and mirrors that satisfies everyone's political needs without actually doing anything. It's also why my biggest issues with Netanyahu have less to do with specific laws that have been proposed (few of which have actually passed) and a lot more to do with some of the corruption probes against him, especially Case 2000.

    Anyways, I think it's worth a read; it helps describe some of the detail that rarely gets reported, and it's in English.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-br...-idf-soldiers/
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  29. #749
    Administrator Dreadnaught's Avatar
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    What a great article of the nonsense that goes into backbencher politicking

  30. #750
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    Hope is the denial of reality

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