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Thread: Zionuts

  1. #1591
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Countries often bar individuals from entering on the basis of undesirable behavior that doesn't cross the threshold for crime. Travel bans don't constitute legal punishments in and of themselves, and don't require specific targets to commit any specific illegal acts.
    You're basically punishing every Jewish Israeli 18-year-old who's not in jail for refusing to serve.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  2. #1592
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    You're basically punishing every Jewish Israeli 18-year-old who's not in jail for refusing to serve.
    This isn't an accurate characterization of my post or of conscription in Israel! I said active membership in the IDF, not any relationship any time in the past or future. But sure, we can compromise even further—travel bans only for those participating in military activities in Gaza. Fine, only for those who chose to travel to Israel from other countries in order to serve in Gaza.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  3. #1593
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  4. #1594
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    This isn't an accurate characterization of my post or of conscription in Israel! I said active membership in the IDF, not any relationship any time in the past or future. But sure, we can compromise even further—travel bans only for those participating in military activities in Gaza. Fine, only for those who chose to travel to Israel from other countries in order to serve in Gaza.
    There are currently 350,000 Israeli conscripts in the IDF. Conscripts don't have much of a choice but to serve. No one seriously suggested doing the same to Russian troops, and they've committed their share of war crimes.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  5. #1595
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    There are currently 350,000 Israeli conscripts in the IDF. Conscripts don't have much of a choice but to serve. No one seriously suggested doing the same to Russian troops, and they've committed their share of war crimes.
    In fact, a number of EU member states quickly imposed what amounted to blanket bans (with minimal humanitarian exceptions) on entry for people with Russian documents. Conscripts have a choice—there are conscientious objectors in Israel, and their circumstances are probably far less onerous than those of Russians who don't wish to serve in Ukraine. Would you choose to participate in atrocities over spending a few weeks in jail? Just ftr, I think sanctions, travel bans and arrests should prioritize IDF leadership—but I also think the world should look into punishment for active membership in organizations that commit crimes against humanity. I would expect nothing less for members of eg. the Tatmadaw, or ISIS, or whatever.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  6. #1596
    Rank and file never really get punished and there's a good reason for that. As the scale grows into the tens and hundreds of thousands it goes from impractical to utterly impossible to do so for even active membership. Reality always wins.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  7. #1597
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Rank and file never really get punished and there's a good reason for that. As the scale grows into the tens and hundreds of thousands it goes from impractical to utterly impossible to do so for even active membership. Reality always wins.
    I believe the basic reason is "we want to pretend that we're better than them", deep down, every time. Sure, there are practical difficulties depending on the exact punishment, but travel bans, for example, seem quite doable. Especially with the modern capabilities of data storage and processing.
    Generally, though, in every war we get a large number of people who really do deserve the most Lewkovskian treatment. Nobody is willing to provide that, since that's something only the bad guys would do. And us, the good guys, can't be seen doing that - so we'll just do nothing, mutter a few phrases about effective punishment being too difficult to implement or outright impossible, and act surprised when the next war comes along and the same thing happens again.
    Carthāgō dēlenda est

  8. #1598
    Ehud Olmert in haaretz:

    https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024...d-daf733870000

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Rank and file never really get punished and there's a good reason for that. As the scale grows into the tens and hundreds of thousands it goes from impractical to utterly impossible to do so for even active membership. Reality always wins.
    Quote Originally Posted by BalticSailor View Post
    I believe the basic reason is "we want to pretend that we're better than them", deep down, every time. Sure, there are practical difficulties depending on the exact punishment, but travel bans, for example, seem quite doable. Especially with the modern capabilities of data storage and processing.
    Generally, though, in every war we get a large number of people who really do deserve the most Lewkovskian treatment. Nobody is willing to provide that, since that's something only the bad guys would do. And us, the good guys, can't be seen doing that - so we'll just do nothing, mutter a few phrases about effective punishment being too difficult to implement or outright impossible, and act surprised when the next war comes along and the same thing happens again.
    Travel bans of this sort are comparatively easy/simple to implement—request travelers with Israeli citizenship to fill out an online form which includes an item abt active membership in the IDF and/or participation in military activities in eg. Gaza. If they answer in the affirmative, reject their application, but give them the opportunity to opt for an interview, in order to allow humanitarian exceptions (eg. traveling to visit dying family members). You don't have to scale up embassy admin capacity—it will inconvenience travelers, but no more than tens of millions of people all over the "global south" are already inconvenienced. Do random checks every now and then to discourage lying—anyone found lying may be subject to deportation and extended bans. Anyone suspected of being members of units suspected of particularly egregious crimes can ofc. be looked up on int'l arrest warrant databases and handled accordingly.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  9. #1599
    Quote Originally Posted by BalticSailor View Post
    I believe the basic reason is "we want to pretend that we're better than them", deep down, every time. Sure, there are practical difficulties depending on the exact punishment, but travel bans, for example, seem quite doable. Especially with the modern capabilities of data storage and processing.
    A general travel ban isn't really a punishment but you can enact a general travel ban easily enough. Aimless was talking about only applying a punishment to those actively serving in the IDF during this conflict though, and that's a different matter. A punishment targeted at a specific class like that requires a means of effectively identifying those who are part of the class from those who aren't. I don't see Israel providing anyone sufficient information to do so, does anyone else? With small classes, in the hundreds to thousands, you can expend a degree of effort and do it with your own resources. Aimless apparently thinks it can be done solely by voluntary self-identification with "random checks" to effectively discourage lying. I think that's clownish but I suppose the form might be more important to Aimless than the substance. I was thinking they meant something meaningful when they talked of punishment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Ehud Olmert in haaretz:

    https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024...d-daf733870000





    Travel bans of this sort are comparatively easy/simple to implement—request travelers with Israeli citizenship to fill out an online form which includes an item abt active membership in the IDF and/or participation in military activities in eg. Gaza. If they answer in the affirmative, reject their application, but give them the opportunity to opt for an interview, in order to allow humanitarian exceptions (eg. traveling to visit dying family members). You don't have to scale up embassy admin capacity—it will inconvenience travelers, but no more than tens of millions of people all over the "global south" are already inconvenienced. Do random checks every now and then to discourage lying—anyone found lying may be subject to deportation and extended bans. Anyone suspected of being members of units suspected of particularly egregious crimes can ofc. be looked up on int'l arrest warrant databases and handled accordingly.
    Since a minor hurdle in travel is all you were thinking of when you said "punishment" why not do something productive (and inevitably corrupt too, but what are you gonna do) instead? Levy an additional fee as a fine on all paperwork for travel with an Israeli passport, proceeds to go toward providing aid and rebuilding in Gaza?
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  10. #1600
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    A general travel ban isn't really a punishment but you can enact a general travel ban easily enough. Aimless was talking about only applying a punishment to those actively serving in the IDF during this conflict though, and that's a different matter. A punishment targeted at a specific class like that requires a means of effectively identifying those who are part of the class from those who aren't. I don't see Israel providing anyone sufficient information to do so, does anyone else?
    Israel doesn't have to—the person seeking entry can do it during their application.

    With small classes, in the hundreds to thousands, you can expend a degree of effort and do it with your own resources. Aimless apparently thinks it can be done solely by voluntary self-identification with "random checks" to effectively discourage lying. I think that's clownish but I suppose the form might be more important to Aimless than the substance. I was thinking they meant something meaningful when they talked of punishment.

    Since a minor hurdle in travel is all you were thinking of when you said "punishment" why not do something productive (and inevitably corrupt too, but what are you gonna do) instead? Levy an additional fee as a fine on all paperwork for travel with an Israeli passport, proceeds to go toward providing aid and rebuilding in Gaza?
    I don't know how often you travel—or under what circumstances—but an administrative hurdle that's minor from a govt's perspective can be disproportionately onerous on the individual. Not even a year ago—prior to the Biden admin's premature and ill-advised decision to let Israel into the VWP—Israeli citizens seeking to travel to the US had to navigate such hurdles as a part of the visa application process, in the form of costly fees, providing documentation, and passing an interview at an American embassy. Many people of Arab descent are hassled in myriad ways when they seek to enter Israel, despite holding US or EU citizenship. Not long ago, my lil sis—who's traveled all over the world over the past several decades—ended up having to deal with a very costly and bothersome visa application process simply because she mistakenly checked the wrong option abt her family background on her electronic visa application to another country.

    Again, I believe western nations should focus on leaders—employing sanctions and int'l arrest warrants—but targeting active members of the IDF is perfectly feasible. At the very least, there should be consequences for those who've traveled to Israel to fight in Gaza for the IDF—just as there should be consequences for people who, in recent years, traveled from western nations to fight for other groups engaging in grotesque crimes.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  11. #1601
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Israel doesn't have to—the person seeking entry can do it during their application.


    I don't know how often you travel—or under what circumstances
    I do hate to travel myself, I grant, and my familiarity with international travel is with the tourist visa. Does the regular Israeli civil documentation show military status/history? I know that while demonstrating your current employee status (which would presumably show being active IDF) can be used to get a Schengen travel visa, it's not the only way used to prove "rootedness". Of course, if someone is engaged in active duty in the IDF, I'm not certain how/why they're traveling at the same time. I've been assuming this is to continue past the termination of this campaign in Gaza. If it's only during then again, clownish and form only, not anything with meaning.

    At the very least, there should be consequences for those who've traveled to Israel to fight in Gaza for the IDF
    So. . . anyone 16 years of age whose families have returned (or immigrated) to Israel from abroad?

    —just as there should be consequences for people who, in recent years, traveled from western nations to fight for other groups engaging in grotesque crimes.
    Again, identification would seem to be problematic. Though this is a much smaller class of people so states might actually being able to finger the kind of foreign-fighter aid you're talking about here through their own resources.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  12. #1602
    Apparently, 'some man' burnt himself in front of the Israeli embassy in Washington DC. No one seems to know why.

    Four major news outlets have almost the exact same headline.



    No one seems to be able to work out who he was or his motives were. How mysterious! If the major news outlets can?t work it out, maybe no one can.

    But the Mossad, who knows everything, says that he was the enemy.



    Thinking about it, the Mossad are right. The US Liberty attack was justified because they are our enemies.

    The logical conclusion of all of this is that we should send more of our tax dollars to Israel.

  13. #1603
    Uncharacteristically ambitious reporting from CNN:

    https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/...tion-intl-cmd/
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  14. #1604
    Day 146 of Gazans not rising up to overthrow Hamas because Israel bombed them.

    Also, 30k dead.
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  15. #1605
    Well at least they didn't have to starve to death
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  16. #1606
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Ehud Olmert in haaretz:

    Travel bans of this sort are comparatively easy/simple to implement?request travelers with Israeli citizenship to fill out an online form which includes an item abt active membership in the IDF and/or participation in military activities in eg. Gaza. If they answer in the affirmative, reject their application, but give them the opportunity to opt for an interview, in order to allow humanitarian exceptions (eg. traveling to visit dying family members). You don't have to scale up embassy admin capacity?it will inconvenience travelers, but no more than tens of millions of people all over the "global south" are already inconvenienced. Do random checks every now and then to discourage lying?anyone found lying may be subject to deportation and extended bans. Anyone suspected of being members of units suspected of particularly egregious crimes can ofc. be looked up on int'l arrest warrant databases and handled accordingly.
    Can't wait for your complaints when Trump imposes his next discriminatory travel ban.



    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Also, 30k dead.
    I don't doubt that it's a high number and a terrible number, but I think it's safe to doubt many metrics coming out of Gaza.

  17. #1607
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I don't doubt that it's a high number and a terrible number, but I think it's safe to doubt many metrics coming out of Gaza.
    They're almost certain a massive under-count. There will be bodies under the rubble that haven't been recovered, people counted as missing who are actually dead and with the dissolution of civil society in Gaza it's likely that will never know the true number, though it's safe to say we're witnessing one of the greatest crimes against humanity of the 21st century.
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  18. #1608
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Can't wait for your complaints when Trump imposes his next discriminatory travel ban.
    Targeting people participating in a genocidal war that's seen tens of thousands killed or maimed and millions displaced? Sure, impose as many such bans as you like. Eat some poop while you're at it mate, it's basically food
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  19. #1609
    I don't doubt that it's a high number and a terrible number, but I think it's safe to doubt many metrics coming out of Gaza.
    Israel claims it killed 10-12k Hamas members and also admitted that it kills 2 civilians for every Hamas member. And as Steely says, this doesn't count deaths from disease and starvation.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  20. #1610
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    They're almost certain a massive under-count. There will be bodies under the rubble that haven't been recovered, people counted as missing who are actually dead and with the dissolution of civil society in Gaza it's likely that will never know the true number, though it's safe to say we're witnessing one of the greatest crimes against humanity of the 21st century.
    This is objectively false, even according to the Israel-haters at the UN. Or the New York Times. Or even the likely anti-Zionists at Brown.

    But, as you have no perspective on the scale of human casualties involved in wartime, I'm quoting this for the next time there's a war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Targeting people participating in a genocidal war that's seen tens of thousands killed or maimed and millions displaced? Sure, impose as many such bans as you like. Eat some poop while you're at it mate, it's basically food
    I think I will donate $10 in your name to the Friends of the IDF for each of your false genocide accusations.

  21. #1611
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    This is objectively false, even according to the Israel-haters at the UN. Or the New York Times. Or even the likely anti-Zionists at Brown.

    But, as you have no perspective on the scale of human casualties involved in wartime, I'm quoting this for the next time there's a war.



    I think I will donate $10 in your name to the Friends of the IDF for each of your false genocide accusations.
    I'm not one of your in-laws mate, I don't really care what kind of loser shit you wanna waste your money and the last vestiges of your tattered dignity on. "If u don't stop being mean im gonna support genocide even more!! " lmao fkn loser go ahead maybe you can exchange the receipt for a hug
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  22. #1612
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    This is objectively false, even according to the Israel-haters at the UN. Or the New York Times. Or even the likely anti-Zionists at Brown.

    But, as you have no perspective on the scale of human casualties involved in wartime, I'm quoting this for the next time there's a war.
    It definitely makes sense to compare the death tolls, or in the case of Ukraine, dead and injured because why not, of multi-year or multi-decade long wars (which were also terrible crimes) fought across entire countries to a four month bombing campaign targeted against a handful of cities against an enemy with extremely limited capability to resist.

    Hey, did you know that if you take a provisional civilian death toll of the Gaza war as 20k based on Loki's post, and then extrapolate the length of the Gaza conflict to be the length of Syrian civil war then the number is 660,000, thus making the IDF a bigger danger to civilians than the SAAF and notorious war criminal Bashar al Assad by a factor of 2? At minimum?

    Or that the highest estimate for civilian dead in Ukraine is 11k, half the total in Gaza, despite the Ukrainian war having lasted 7 times as long?
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  23. #1613
    The Ukrainian figure is a vast underestimate. The Siege of Mariupol alone likely killed between 8,000 and 75,000.

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ch-2024-02-08/
    https://apnews.com/article/russia-uk...fe750ea99b9ad9

    The problem is once Russia conquers a city, it doesn't exactly give access to outside observers.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  24. #1614
    The only other city Russia actually captured was Kherson, and that was taken and then re-taken without much actual fighting. Mariupol has proven to be the stand-out civilian death event of the war so far, unusual in that it was surrounded in the early days of the war went the fronts were moving quickly, so we end up with a lot of civilians trapped in a place Russia had decided to level with artillery. In most other places where there was heavy fighting civilians have had plenty of time to evacuate. These days, most of the fighting is happening in abandoned towns, and we're just not seeing the massive air campaign against civilian targets we're seeing in Gaza.

    I don't doubt the 11k number is an underestimate (though it should be noted that it's Ukraine's number, they have little motive to low-ball the number), but I doubt the true total is anything like 10x as high.
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  25. #1615
    Considering that Russia's strategy was to carpet-bomb cities, I don't think 100k is unreasonable. The Ukrainians admit to 30k military fatalities. I somehow doubt Russia didn't kill multiple civilians for each soldier, especially early in the conflict.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  26. #1616
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    They're almost certain a massive under-count. There will be bodies under the rubble that haven't been recovered, people counted as missing who are actually dead and with the dissolution of civil society in Gaza it's likely that will never know the true number, though it's safe to say we're witnessing one of the greatest crimes against humanity of the 21st century.
    Oh, we've got 3/4 of the century left to pile up even worse. And I gotta say, I don't think the outlook for the 21st is rosy. I'mma be happy if we can avoid a WWI or II during our lifetime
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  27. #1617
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Considering that Russia's strategy was to carpet-bomb cities, I don't think 100k is unreasonable. The Ukrainians admit to 30k military fatalities. I somehow doubt Russia didn't kill multiple civilians for each soldier, especially early in the conflict.
    Which cities in Ukraine have been carpet bombed?

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Oh, we've got 3/4 of the century left to pile up even worse. And I gotta say, I don't think the outlook for the 21st is rosy. I'mma be happy if we can avoid a WWI or II during our lifetime
    It's got a solid chance of making the top 10 by the time 2100 rolls around, maybe even top 5.
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  28. #1618
    Please don't jinx it
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  29. #1619
    https://reliefweb.int/report/occupie...gaza-city-enar

    From mid-January to the end of February 2024, the Office has recorded at least 14 incidents involving shooting and shelling of people gathered to receive desperately needed supplies at Al Kuwait Roundabout on Salah Ad Deen Road and Al Nabulsi Roundabout - two entrances to Gaza City - with a majority of these incidents resulting in casualties.
    Stupid, hungry Palestinians.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  30. #1620

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