Zionuts

[Dreadnaught]

In Zionuttery news, weirdo loser couple steals children's books from public library:

https://nypost.com/2023/12/09/metro/...eli-apartheid/

As an aside, this is a weird genre of children's books. Are there Zionist equivalents? I'm sure there are but I can't find 'em.

Sorry Steely looks like Wig wins this one

Twitter Link

Who the hell buys a bear that big.

I swear that Israeli's increasing bizarre propaganda attempts represent some kind of attempt at mockery.

What if it's real though.

you're making jokes
Paddington Bear has joined Hamas and you're making jokes

[Ominous Gamer]

As an aside, this is a weird genre of children's books.

This is a weird claim to make. World events and life experiences are commonly turned into children's books. Not everything has to be green eggs and ham. I've shared board books in this forum on advanced science topics and BLM.

[Aimless]

before you rush to condemn her consider what if the scarf were 17 years old and armed

Twitter Link

[Loki]

One of the people on Dread's side:

https://www.rawstory.com/white-supre...ristians-repor

But hey, there's nothing to worry about. Dread will get to pay less in taxes!

[Loki]

Regarding wig's claims that Hamas is losing support:

An opinion poll carried out between 22 November and 2 December by a respected Palestinian think-tank, the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PSR), found that support for Hamas had more than tripled in the West Bank compared to three months ago.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67695861

[Aimless]

I'm, uh, sure it sounds less insane in the original

[Hazir]

Regarding wig's claims that Hamas is losing support:



https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67695861

Oh, West Bank Palestinians, really the relevant people to know how popular Hamas is where they rule.

[Hazir]

Interesting by the way how the counters of military/civil ratio seem to forget that besides the Israeli invasion there's the little matter of Hamas still firing missiles at Israel.

[Aimless]

Interesting by the way how the counters of military/civil ratio seem to forget that besides the Israeli invasion there's the little matter of Hamas still firing missiles at Israel.

"We've killed/maimed/orphaned thousands of kids and have very little to show for it" is not an argument a smart person would want to present in defense of the IDF.

[Aimless]

Twitter Link

Haaretz engaging in blood libel against the world's most moral army smh

[Hazir]

"We've killed/maimed/orphaned thousands of kids and have very little to show for it" is not an argument a smart person would want to present in defense of the IDF.

They don't need my defense. But I see no reason to conclude that before we can even know all the facts whether or not their actions were proportionate. Hamas is still actively attacking Israeli population centers. Purely civilian targets. Don't hear you much about the need to end that first.

[Steely Glint]

Hamas is still actively attacking Israeli population centers. Purely civilian targets. Don't hear you much about the need to end that first.

Maybe Hamas should make vague and unsubstantiated claims about how the people their random ass rockets injure or kill are part of the IDF or something to do with the Israeli government, maybe then western commentators would be like "hmm, yes, it's impossibly to say for sure whether these were true terrorist attacks or not". Or not.

Maybe the next time their rockets actually manage to hurt someone they'll do exactly that, they haven't had the chance yet. Maybe that tells us something about how proportionate it is to level two entire cities and kill nearly 20,000 people (at time of writing), but then again maybe there's some other reason we don't know about that makes the destruction of Gaza justified. Maybe an evil spirit appeared to Netanyahu and commanded him to destroy the Gaza strip or else Israel would be destroyed within 10 years? I can't prove that one didn't. What's real anyway? Maybe Israel and Palestine don't even exist? Maybe we're all living in a simulation and only the people who post on this forum are real and we're part of some strange experiment run by an insane AI? Who can say? Since we cannot prove any of the above is not case, you can't say that what Israel is doing is wrong.

[Hazir]

Or Hamas sticks to its narrative of calling their war crimes justified because of the 'Israeli occupation'. (FYI : that's not how the rules work).

As for the rest; you're very happy to declare the actions of Israel disproportionate when the only way to establish proportionality is knowing a plethora of facts neither you or I can know. I doubt the Israeli leadership still only has a general idea about the proportionality of their actions.

[Loki]

Why are we still arguing about proportionality when Israel's actions are demonstrably not bringing Israel any closer to Israel's stated objective (of completely eliminating Hamas)? The whole point of proportionality is for harm caused to be proportional to military objectives achieved (not proportional to the other side's level of violence). I.e., it's much more morally acceptable to kill 20 civilians if it means killing the other side's leader than to kill 20 civilians to kill a single enemy combatant. Israel's actions aren't achieving its military objectives (nor did they ever have any hope of doing so), meaning even 1 dead civilian would be a disproportionate use of force.

[Steely Glint]

Or Hamas sticks to its narrative of calling their war crimes justified because of the 'Israeli occupation'. (FYI : that's not how the rules work).

As for the rest; you're very happy to declare the actions of Israel disproportionate when the only way to establish proportionality is knowing a plethora of facts neither you or I can know. I doubt the Israeli leadership still only has a general idea about the proportionality of their actions.

schrodingers war crimes

[Hazir]

Why are we still arguing about proportionality when Israel's actions are demonstrably not bringing Israel any closer to Israel's stated objective (of completely eliminating Hamas)? The whole point of proportionality is for harm caused to be proportional to military objectives achieved (not proportional to the other side's level of violence). I.e., it's much more morally acceptable to kill 20 civilians if it means killing the other side's leader than to kill 20 civilians to kill a single enemy combatant. Israel's actions aren't achieving its military objectives (nor did they ever have any hope of doing so), meaning even 1 dead civilian would be a disproportionate use of force.

Interesting how you know all these things already. The reason why we talk about the proportionality is that people like you want to forego the facts and start with the sentence.

[Hazir]

schrodingers war crimes

I don't know what you think war crimes are, but the legal definition is not 'things that Israel does that crypto antisemites don't like'. Until it has been established that the IDF has acted disproportional in its act of self-defense, claims of war crimes are just empty uses of legal terms

[Aimless]

They don't need my defense. But I see no reason to conclude that before we can even know all the facts whether or not their actions were proportionate. Hamas is still actively attacking Israeli population centers. Purely civilian targets. Don't hear you much about the need to end that first.

Or Hamas sticks to its narrative of calling their war crimes justified because of the 'Israeli occupation'. (FYI : that's not how the rules work).

As for the rest; you're very happy to declare the actions of Israel disproportionate when the only way to establish proportionality is knowing a plethora of facts neither you or I can know. I doubt the Israeli leadership still only has a general idea about the proportionality of their actions.

Interesting how you know all these things already. The reason why we talk about the proportionality is that people like you want to forego the facts and start with the sentence.

I don't know what you think war crimes are, but the legal definition is not 'things that Israel does that crypto antisemites don't like'. Until it has been established that the IDF has acted disproportional in its act of self-defense, claims of war crimes are just empty uses of legal terms

Hamas's ineffectual rocket attacks have no bearing on the legal or moral status of killing/maiming/orphaning thousands of Palestinian kids by subjecting them to indiscriminate violence with genocidal intent. The former is a disturbance, while the latter is a prima facie atrocity that's ongoing. Proportionality is not a relevant consideration when it comes to atrocities, but, if it had been, it should be noted that Israel isn't achieving reasonable military goals to any significant extent by its own admission. Proportionality in retribution/revenge is neither morally nor legally exculpatory in this context, but, if it had been, it is undeniable that the response is entirely disproportionate. To believe otherwise is just incredibly silly.

[Steely Glint]

While I appreciate your statement that people who 'don't like' that Israel inflicted a 5 figure death toll on civilians in the Gaza strip in less than 2 months are 'anti-sematic' (I assume the logic is that it's 'anti-sematic' to not think that the lives of Palestinians are just intrinsically worth less than those of Israelis which is.. telling), Israel has attacked 100s of protected targets, including hospitals, schools, places of worship and refugee camps. Unless Israel has proof that all of these were being used to make an 'effective contribution to military action' (since 'In case of doubt whether an object which is normally dedicated to civilian purposes, such as a place of worship, a house or other dwelling or a school, is being used to make an effective contribution to military action, it shall be presumed not to be so used'), then targeting them was a war crime. If they did have such proof, then we can talk about proportionality. Since Israel actually had boots on the ground in Al-Shifa Hospital, which it claimed was being used as command center, and wasn't able to turn up anything more than a few AKs and a calendar, the chances are they did not have such proof in at least one prominent case. And since Israel has admitted that it's focused on 'what causes maximum damage' (https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...line-with-gaza) the chances for proportionality (and discrimination) aren't good either. And that's before we even get on to the blockade, attacks on infrastructure, and collective punishment or the seeming campaign of assassinations against journalists.

[Loki]

Interesting how you know all these things already. The reason why we talk about the proportionality is that people like you want to forego the facts and start with the sentence.

I know that Israel's goals are wildly unrealistic given what we know about similar conflicts in the past, that Israel is failing to even kill a sufficient number of Hamas members (even ignoring the fact they're easily replaceable), that Israel has no actual plan for keeping Hamas (or a similar group) from taking power the second Israel withdraws, that Israel is rapidly losing what ever international support it had (which would be vital for pushing Hamas or the Palestinians in general to accept a deal that would make Israel safer), and that Israel's actions are all but guaranteed to precipitate future violence in the West Bank.

Can you please tell me what is the mechanism that will keep Hamas (or a similar group) out of power the second Israel leaves? Other than some bizarre wishful thinking where Palestinians respond to a war that destroyed virtually all their homes by overthrowing Hamas and replacing it with some peaceful alternative. Let's say Israel even manages to prolong this war by another few months.

[Hazir]

The objectives you describe have no bearing on the simple fact that Israel is entitled to defend itself after the attacks of the t
7th of October and subsequent attacks. Those attacks by the way qualify as war crimes almost exclusively as they typically aren't targeting the IDF. It also isn't relevant that the missile attacks are relatively void of success. What is relevant is that they are still taking place. Your believes about what Israel can or cannot achieve are your believe, I have no opinion on this.

Finally, I refuse entirely to base any opinion on the basis of information of an organisation that has made desinformation and war crimes of a business model. I doubt their numbers, I doubt their claims about the militant/civilian ratio.I even doubt their claims about the causes of the reported deaths.

[Hazir]

While I appreciate your statement that people who 'don't like' that Israel inflicted a 5 figure death toll on civilians in the Gaza strip in less than 2 months are 'anti-sematic' (I assume the logic is that it's 'anti-sematic' to not think that the lives of Palestinians are just intrinsically worth less than those of Israelis which is.. telling), Israel has attacked 100s of protected targets, including hospitals, schools, places of worship and refugee camps. Unless Israel has proof that all of these were being used to make an 'effective contribution to military action' (since 'In case of doubt whether an object which is normally dedicated to civilian purposes, such as a place of worship, a house or other dwelling or a school, is being used to make an effective contribution to military action, it shall be presumed not to be so used'), then targeting them was a war crime. If they did have such proof, then we can talk about proportionality. Since Israel actually had boots on the ground in Al-Shifa Hospital, which it claimed was being used as command center, and wasn't able to turn up anything more than a few AKs and a calendar, the chances are they did not have such proof in at least one prominent case. And since Israel has admitted that it's focused on 'what causes maximum damage' (https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...line-with-gaza) the chances for proportionality (and discrimination) aren't good either. And that's before we even get on to the blockade, attacks on infrastructure, and collective punishment or the seeming campaign of assassinations against journalists.

You keep thinking that your opinions about facts you don't have creates realities.

[Loki]

The objectives you describe have no bearing on the simple fact that Israel is entitled to defend itself after the attacks of the t
7th of October and subsequent attacks. Those attacks by the way qualify as war crimes almost exclusively as they typically aren't targeting the IDF. It also isn't relevant that the missile attacks are relatively void of success. What is relevant is that they are still taking place. Your believes about what Israel can or cannot achieve are your believe, I have no opinion on this.

Finally, I refuse entirely to base any opinion on the basis of information of an organisation that has made desinformation and war crimes of a business model. I doubt their numbers, I doubt their claims about the militant/civilian ratio.I even doubt their claims about the causes of the reported deaths.

What you're suggesting is that Israel should fight a war of revenge knowing full well that its stated objectives are unreachable. Revenge that overwhelmingly hurts civilians, increases Islamophobia and anti-Semitism the world over, and makes Israel itself less safe.

[Aimless]

The objectives you describe have no bearing on the simple fact that Israel is entitled to defend itself after the attacks of the t
7th of October and subsequent attacks. Those attacks by the way qualify as war crimes almost exclusively as they typically aren't targeting the IDF. It also isn't relevant that the missile attacks are relatively void of success. What is relevant is that they are still taking place. Your believes about what Israel can or cannot achieve are your believe, I have no opinion on this.

Finally, I refuse entirely to base any opinion on the basis of information of an organisation that has made desinformation and war crimes of a business model. I doubt their numbers, I doubt their claims about the militant/civilian ratio.I even doubt their claims about the causes of the reported deaths.

This is just plain stupid, esp. given that the Gaza health ministry's figures continue to be in line with other estimates—including ones from the Israeli govt. Being mad at some guy isn't a substitute for reasoning.

[Hazir]

This is just plain stupid, esp. given that the Gaza health ministry's figures continue to be in line with other estimates?including ones from the Israeli govt. Being mad at some guy isn't a substitute for reasoning.

I'm not going to take information given by a branch of Hamas serious. For starters, an innocent sounding nameplate doesn't make them independent of the terrorist organisation, second, they refuse attempts to verify their claims by independent sources, third, they are proven liars, four, they have an interest in not reporting combatants as combatants.

That you are happy to believe terrorists is your choice. My choice is to not believe them at all.

[Hazir]

What you're suggesting is that Israel should fight a war of revenge knowing full well that its stated objectives are unreachable. Revenge that overwhelmingly hurts civilians, increases Islamophobia and anti-Semitism the world over, and makes Israel itself less safe.

I think Israel is entitled to defend itself unimpeded by the prejudices of western - or other - spectators. Just because you think they are wrong doesn't make them wrong. Whether or not they were wrong can be established at a later time. Though I could understand their hesitation if the judges at that point have shown their prejudices today.

[Aimless]

I'm not going to take information given by a branch of Hamas serious. For starters, an innocent sounding nameplate doesn't make them independent of the terrorist organisation, second, they refuse attempts to verify their claims by independent sources, third, they are proven liars, four, they have an interest in not reporting combatants as combatants.

That you are happy to believe terrorists is your choice. My choice is to not believe them at all.

I'm not sure why you're bragging about holding a singularly stupid position. The ministry's figures have historically been in line with estimates from other sources—including the IDF. This remains the case; the IDF has produced estimates of both total casualties as well as expected ratio of combatants to civilians. The deaths and maiming of children have been documented and attested by foreign HCWs and journos. You don't have to believe terrorists, but nor do you have to be an actual honest to god idjit. Use whatever's left of your withering brain, decide on an estimate, establish confidence intervals, and let us know how many thousands of killed/maimed/orphaned kids you need.

I think Israel is entitled to defend itself unimpeded by the prejudices of western - or other - spectators. Just because you think they are wrong doesn't make them wrong. Whether or not they were wrong can be established at a later time. Though I could understand their hesitation if the judges at that point have shown their prejudices today.

This is clownposting. Incredible Putinist Erdoganian energy, entirely devoid of both intellect and character. There is no room for neutrality in the treatment of genocide and other atrocities, and it is in equal measures craven and cretinous to believe otherwise.

[Hazir]

The 'ministry' as you call it is a branch of a terrorist organisation. This terrorist organisation has war crimes and desinformation as a business model. I see no reason to take any of their information as reliable before extensive verification by independent sources. Not by groups that are depending on the terrorists to do their work.

Which genocide? Do you know what a genocide is? The atrocity of hiding behind civilians is committed by Hamas. That is a certainty, if the IDF'S reaction qualifies as such is not a given. The track record of the IDF seems to point towards seriously attempting to act within proportional parameters.

[LittleFuzzy]

Why are we still arguing about proportionality when Israel's actions are demonstrably not bringing Israel any closer to Israel's stated objective (of completely eliminating Hamas)?

Of course they are. To completely elminate Hamas, they have to drive all the Palestinians INTO Hamas. At that point, eliminating Hamas (or at least rendering it no longer any threat from Gaza) is simply a matter of completely removing every Hamas member or supporter from Gaza (which they already got a head start on) and never letting any of them return.

[LittleFuzzy]

There is no room for neutrality in the treatment of genocide and other atrocities,

Yes there is. Any of the groups involved in this latest cluster of atrocities could have prevented the attacks on Oct 7th and this reprisal by acting differently. They all had plenty of reason to act differently. None felt it was their concern or worth their effort