Thermobaric bombs can be quite effective, even against people hiding underground. To prevent too much collateral deaths you would want the population of the city to evacuate.
Thermobaric bombs can be quite effective, even against people hiding underground. To prevent too much collateral deaths you would want the population of the city to evacuate.
Congratulations America
I wonder how far just one of those would spread the nuclear fallout?Originally Posted by Hazir
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
probably not at all. But besides that, how do you see a chain of events in which Hamas sets off a nuclear device (in the land they claim as their's no less) while the IAF is using thermobaric weapons and the actual (i presume) target (IDF) is still at a safe distance.
Even suicide terrorists typically are not so suicidal that they only want to kill themselves.
Congratulations America
Ordering a million people to evacuate within a day—in a densely populated open air prison—is as grotesque as it is stupid. MSF says they've been given 2h to evacuate a hospital. Patients in their care will die because of war crimes by the most moral army in the world.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Sounds familiar. Stupidity is obviously contagious
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
I forgot this thread existed. A few thoughts - Hamas needs to be totally destroyed, Biden is doing good by backing Israel. Crazy university students attempting to justify the Hamas terrorism are a blight on this country. Glad they are getting so much pushback on their nihilistic bull shit.
Israel really needs to take over Gaza and fix their broken jihad loving society. Total control and total surveillance of every inch of the Gaza strip is needed. When Israel goes in and cleanses the place of all Hamas and those who support Hamas, their society can be rebuilt with actual productive values. While this sounds extreme, there really isn't any other option. If they go in and wipe Hamas out but don't fix the broken culture these people have, there will just be another version of Hamas that springs up. And obviously not wiping out Hamas is not an option either.
He's not wrong. Same is true for Israel and some of the governments they've had including this one, and they had much easier routes for change. 's why I maintain my "a plague on both their houses" stance.
Sounds familiar. Stupidity is obviously contagious
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
How well did that work for the US in Iraq or Afghanistan? Keep in mind that the population of both of those countries tolerated the US far more than Palestinians tolerate Israel.
Hope is the denial of reality
Or Korea or Vietnam? The only place I remember that working for the USA is Grenada. Thanks Ronald
Last edited by Being; 10-14-2023 at 09:37 PM. Reason: sp.
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
Pipe dream. Israel doesn't have the resources. Why do you think they withdrew under Ariel Sharon in the first place? It wasn't because he had the warm fuzzies toward the Gazan population.
's kinda unfortunate then that the "only option" is one that is flat-out impossible. How exactly is Israel supposed to magically transform that society? Particularly with the way that society is supported from the outside?When Israel goes in and cleanses the place of all Hamas and those who support Hamas, their society can be rebuilt with actual productive values. While this sounds extreme, there really isn't any other option.
Israel (helped by its neighbors and the locals) has spent a literal lifetime turning Gaza into a pit. When they withdrew in '06, it was only while ensuring that conditions there would and could not materially improve. "Transforming" society there into something productive would take substantially longer. The 1st step would be to enable and positively incentivize most of them to emigrate away from Gaza and productively establish themselves elsewhere. And that's never going to be in Israel's power to do.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
You say that, but I doubt you're willing to take this line of reasoning to its intended conclusion. Because, for both sides, the underlying sentiment behind this kind of framing is that civilians are terrorists—legitimate targets who've signed up for their own annihilation. That is the only reason why these kinds of statements get trotted out in times of violence—to justify the brutalization of ordinary civilians. By this reasoning, Fuzzy, you yourself are a legitimate target.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
When the sky above us fell
We descended into hell
Into kingdom come
X is full of misinformation. This Xcretion might be true or false.
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
Are you telling me the only democracy in the middle east is led by an inveterate fascist crook
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
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Every time
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
I still remember a time when people here claimed that Netanyahu wasn't that bad. That time being a few months ago.
Hope is the denial of reality
Gaza is not that large. It can be broken up into smaller sections as well. Will have to *actually* turn parts of it into an actual prison, but that's the reality of dealing with a death cult.
When u have a very big brain, all problems seem very small
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Yes. And? How does it being used for unsavory purposes make it less true?
Here's something in a similar vein. I literally do not see any way for Israel (other actors might have more options but Israel doesn't) to "fix" the situation they've created in Gaza besides ethnically cleansing it. Does that mean I think they should? No. Absolutely not. Can I see myself ever being supportive of them doing so? Again no, absolutely not. But it's still the only way they could conceivably resolve their security situation there that I can see. They've created and allowed others to create an impossible situation for themselves.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
Geographically it's not that large. You're not talking about controlling territory though, you're talking about controlling people.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
I am getting a bit tired of these people who keep saying no change can be achieved this wat. They are almost as dead in their souls as the people who think it's going to be a straightforward job. But if the naysayers were really as right as they think they are, somewhere in the seventies of the last century WW III would have happened. As far as i remember Japanese aggressive imperialism nor Germany's Nazism magically revived because of the horrible defeat they suffered.
It's also extremely racist to insist that the only lesson Arabs can learn from getting defeated decisively is them just waiting for a time to take revenge. The process of normalization between Israel and it neighbors pretty much started with the smoke of the Yom Kippur war still in their noses. And I believe Palestinians are just as capable of normalization given half a chance.
Congratulations America
Creating subdivisions, and changing from this stupid dual use policy that very obviously only leads to more poverty and more weapons to a stricter management of input and output could actually achieve a lot. Once full disarmament has been achieved. Zero tolerance in combination with opportunities for growth of wealth could make Gaza an attractive place to be.
Congratulations America
It will be as easy to pull off as the disarmament and peaceful rebuilding of Afghanistan. Except with less manpower, fewer resources, and a population that unanimously hates the occupier.
Hope is the denial of reality
It's plainly untrue. The position is both morally and legally absurd, even if you disregard the nigh-insurmountable obstacles facing anyone who might want Hamas out. Half of the civilians in Gaza are children. Are children collectively responsible for Hamas's attacks on Israel? After all, they didn't pick up machine guns with their malnourished toddler arms and kill the terrorists. Anger and annoyance cause moral tunnel vision. You say "a plague on both their houses" but their houses are full of children who bear no responsibility for the horrors others have unleashed on them.
It only looks like an impossible situation if you accept a framing that implicitly (and, indeed, explicitly) dehumanizes Palestinians, and devalues Palestinian lives. Possible solutions other than ethnic cleansing are predicated on the willingness to take the risk of acknowledging the humanity of ordinary people in Palestine.Here's something in a similar vein. I literally do not see any way for Israel (other actors might have more options but Israel doesn't) to "fix" the situation they've created in Gaza besides ethnically cleansing it. Does that mean I think they should? No. Absolutely not. Can I see myself ever being supportive of them doing so? Again no, absolutely not. But it's still the only way they could conceivably resolve their security situation there that I can see. They've created and allowed others to create an impossible situation for themselves.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
I'm not talking about Palestinians, I'm talking about the Gaza Strip. The two are not interchangeable. You talk about learning lessons. Who is being taught the "lessons" from this war, the period before, and its aftermath? The history and hate (and history of hate) isn't what makes Gaza so impossible. It's the demographics and economics. The hate/history just provide a direction for the turmoil and violence. And frankly, even without that history, it would probably quickly develop a similar one with those two sharply divided and closed societies side-by-side.
Last edited by LittleFuzzy; 10-15-2023 at 05:33 PM.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
Of course, going back to the status quo ante would mean that no level of eradication of Hamas would make a bloody difference. But that still doesn't mean that it can't work in Gaza because it didn't work in the otherwise completely incomparable Afghanistan. It seems to be working quite well in Kurdish Iraq.
Congratulations America
I wonder if Hamas realizes that by regularly exchanging hostages for jailed fighters, it's incentivizing Israel to kill any captured fighter.
Like I said before, there's similar animosity between Armenia and Azerbaijan and that conflict has been ongoing for only a few decades.
Hope is the denial of reality
Meanwhile, settlers are going on a rampage in the West Bank, killing (with IDF support) 51 Palestinians in the past few days.
https://theintercept.com/2023/10/13/...ans-west-bank/
Hope is the denial of reality
Loki, it appears that settlers have murdered on the order of five Palestinians. This is wrong and they should be imprisoned. Personally I think Esh Kodesh should be dismantled as well, but I feel that way about all of the outposts. That being said, it's a notorious outpost for price tag attacks and there's an even stronger argument to dismantle it.
I have not seen evidence that the broader number of Palestinian casualties in the West Bank are due to settler action, they appear to be due to IDF activity related to eg massive arrest raids and heightened levels of caution. There is zero evidence that the IDF is coordinating its raids or activity in the WB with outposts.
Last edited by wiggin; 10-18-2023 at 06:14 AM. Reason: Updating my numbers
"When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)
Lord knows I'm not the most inventive person. I can easily be missing things. What are the things YOU think Israel can do that will bring the cross-border violence to an end within 30 years time, given the demographic and economic environment in Gaza and between Gaza and Israel? Feel free to dream impossible things like the Israeli democracy actually being both functional and peace-oriented. But it has to remain Israel or you'll never get a dovish majority out of them. It also can't just turn the other cheek to violence in the intervening 30 years
Right now, less than half the adult population is gainfully employed at all (and 1/3 of those that are working are "public" workers) and most of the population is not able to self-support. What is your path that sees twice the number supported and occupied in a positive manner without getting embittered and radicalized by their conditions? Those are the people learning lessons and figuring out their futures right now and they're the people I see carrying the conflict forward. Do you think Gaza is actually capable of supporting them if Israel stops making certain it can't? Because I don't. There's certainly untapped potential there but enough to handle that boom?
Last edited by LittleFuzzy; 10-17-2023 at 07:13 PM.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
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