Zionuts

[GGT]

Something else happening under the Trump administration -- anyone who criticizes Israeli leadership or its policies *hates* Israel and Jews.

[Dreadnaught]

Nevermind, we should be good in a bit: https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...-tlaib-1422928

Israeli ambassador says Omar and Tlaib will be allowed in country
By CAITLIN OPRYSKO 07/19/2019 02:30 PM EDT

Reps. Rashida Tlaib and Ilhan Omar, both outspoken critics of Israel and its occupation of the West Bank, will be allowed into the country during a trip there in a few weeks, the Israeli ambassador said Friday, potentially heading off a diplomatic spat.

“Out of respect for the U.S. Congress and the great alliance between Israel and America, we would not deny entry to any member of Congress into Israel,” said Ron Dermer, Israel’s envoy to the United States.

The freshman Democrats have drawn the ire of pro-Israel politicians — including within the Democratic caucus — over the pair’s support for the the global boycott, divestment and sanctions movement against Israel, known as the BDS movement.

Omar said Wednesday the pair are set to visit the country in the coming weeks, and earlier this week introduced a new resolution supporting the right of Americans to boycott Israel, to counter a separate measure condemning the BDS movement. The boycott movement has been deemed anti-Semitic and hateful by Israel’s defenders.

Had Israel’s government chosen to deny the polarizing lawmakers, it would have come amid a contentious war of words between Omar, Tlaib, their fellow Democratic Reps. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Ayanna Pressley, and President Donald Trump that has dragged on for almost a week.

For the past six days, Trump has launched racist attacks against the congresswomen on Twitter and in public comments, calling them anti-Semitic and anti-American, and telling them to “go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places from which they came.”

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu could have blocked the visit from the congresswomen based on a sporadically enforced law passed in 2017. But Dermer’s blanket approval for members of Congress appears aimed at averting a diplomatic crisis over the matter.

[GGT]

Never mind, after a Trump tweet Netanyahu changed his mind. "Even AIPAC is pissed".

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9...om-the-country

Something is seriously wrong here.

[wiggin]

Yeah, I've got to say it wasn't just the wrong decision - it was also criminally stupid.

[Loki]

I hope having the US embassy moved to Jerusalem was worth it, because there will be hell to pay when a Democrat becomes president or when Democrats take Congress.

[Flixy]

Never mind, after a Trump tweet Netanyahu changed his mind. "Even AIPAC is pissed".

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9...om-the-country

Something is seriously wrong here.

I thought he wanted them to go back?

[Loki]

Israel still looks bad, but so does Tlaib now. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-49373269

[Hazir]

It's all very middle eastern.

[wiggin]

Israel still looks bad, but so does Tlaib now. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-49373269

I've got no problem with Rashida Tlaib. Sure, she used this to score political points, but I reject Deri's basic argument that she 'hates Israel more than she loves her grandmother'. The interior ministry, by publishing her letter and their conditions, put her in an impossible situation, and she came under a lot of pressure from her supporters not to go. Deri could have just said 'on second thought, we have decided to let her in so she can see family, we expect this trip to be non-political' and leave it at that. But they instead had to publish their strong-arming of her.

Frankly I have a much bigger problem with Omar. Tlaib's support of BDS and general antipathy towards Israel is understandable given her constituency and her background, and while she and Omar both flat-out lied about their positions on BDS (and, in Tlaib's case, the two state solution) during their elections, at least Tlaib was lying to outside groups while Omar was lying to her constituents; Tlaib's constituents are much more open to her politics in this issue than, say, the St. Louis Park community is to Omar's. For that matter, Tlaib hasn't had such an endless string of openly antisemitic statements - I am not calling Omar an antisemite (though it's possible), but she is at a minimum deeply ignorant of how her rhetoric can be perceived as such, which is problematic for someone taking a prominent view on Israel.



I was discussing this whole mess with a friend today and he had an interesting perspective. In his mind, this whole mess actually served the interests of everyone involved. Tlaib and Omar get a political win, a signal boost, and are portrayed as martyrs for a political cause. Trump gets to use the inevitable Democratic wagon-circling as a way to portray Tlaib and Omar as representative of mainstream Democratic positions. Even Netanyahu, from a domestic politics perspective, gets to show how he's standing up against BDS (his position is worst because Trump's public cajoling makes Netanyahu look like a lapdog, but since most of the Israeli public already thinks that, it's probably not much of a loss). Obviously Democrats lose in this scenario because they're stuck defending two congresswomen who hold deeply unpopular positions on Israel, but the Democratic leadership had no active role in this charade.

IMO Israel should have just let them in and ignored them; if asked about their BDS position, give a vanilla statement about respect for the US Congress, and leave it at that. But sadly I do not run the Israeli Interior Ministry.

[Loki]

Tlaib shouldn't have sent a letter she didn't want to see made public. Otherwise, agreed.

[Aimless]

Twitter Link

Making the Evangelical subtext text. Disturbing, and should've elicited immediate condemnation from GOP legislators.

[Loki]

Maybe in 2015.

[GGT]

Twitter Link

Making the Evangelical subtext text. Disturbing, and should've elicited immediate condemnation from GOP legislators.

The GOP has too many Christian Evangelicals who believe Trump is the chosen one, and apparently he agrees. A president with a God complex, who retweets 'King of Israel' and 'second coming of God' comments, and is surrounded and enabled by 'true believers' is more than disturbing -- it's frightening!

I've always wondered what Jews think about Christians (especially politicians/policy makers) who view Israel as a vehicle for the End-of-Days prophecy (the Rapture) when everyone converts to Christianity?

[Being]

I've always wondered what Jews think about Christians (especially politicians/policy makers) who view Israel as a vehicle for the End-of-Days prophecy (the Rapture) when everyone converts to Christianity?

Probably depends on whether you are truly Jewish or just an adopted one.

[wiggin]

Probably depends on whether you are truly Jewish or just an adopted one.

What, precisely, is the difference between a 'true' Jew or an adopted one?

[Being]

What, precisely, is the difference between a 'true' Jew or an adopted one?

Ethnicity or religion. Born of Jewish decent or allowed to join the religion. Jarod or Evanka.

[EyeKhan]

The GOP has too many Christian Evangelicals who believe Trump is the chosen one, and apparently he agrees. A president with a God complex, who retweets 'King of Israel' and 'second coming of God' comments, and is surrounded and enabled by 'true believers' is more than disturbing -- it's frightening!

I've always wondered what Jews think about Christians (especially politicians/policy makers) who view Israel as a vehicle for the End-of-Days prophecy (the Rapture) when everyone converts to Christianity?

I still can't see how any devout Christian doesn't see Trump as an anti-Christ figure. It's like we're watching Revelations unfold. Yeah, it might lead to the Rapture/ End Times/ return of Christ, but anybody that lent Trump their vote won't be ascending into heaven. It's a pretty big sin to knowingly support the anti-Christ, ffs. The whole thing is creepy, really.

[wiggin]

Ethnicity or religion. Born of Jewish decent or allowed to join the religion. Jarod or Evanka.

Firstly, I haven't a clue why being born Jewish vs choosing to be Jewish would affect how one views Trump's comments.

Second, the distinction you're drawing is deeply offensive to anyone who has chosen to join the Jewish people. They are just as much a 'true' Jew as anyone else. Jewish law is incredibly clear that it is absolutely forbidden to discriminate against or in any other way mistreat the convert.

[Being]

... the distinction you're drawing is deeply offensive to anyone who has chosen to join the Jewish people.

Using the term Jewish people instead of Jewish religion seems to imply that Evanka now has Jewish heritage when in fact she has only adopted Jewish religious traditions. And if you find this distinction offensive you are too sensitive on the issue.

edit: Jews are not limited to belonging to the Jewish religion. Christian Jews, Muslim Jews, agnostic Jews, are they not Jewish?

[wiggin]

Using the term Jewish people instead of Jewish religion seems to imply that Evanka now has Jewish heritage when in fact she has only adopted Jewish religious traditions. And if you find this distinction offensive you are too sensitive on the issue.

edit: Jews are not limited to belonging to the Jewish religion. Christian Jews, Muslim Jews, agnostic Jews, are they not Jewish?

Judaism is primarily viewed as a religion, and to distinguish between those who have been born into the faith as opposed to those who have chosen the faith is pretty problematic in nearly any religion. You clearly were saying there's an inferiority if you're 'just an adopted' Jew rather than a 'true' Jew and I think it's hardly being 'sensitive' to take umbrage at such a stratification. Down that road is a very dark place when it comes to any identity. X people aren't true Christians, or Americans, or white people, or patriots, so they're inferior. (You can substitute in your favorite identity - it's certainly been tried enough time around the world.)

Yes, there are other elements of Jewish identity - as an ethnicity, a race, and a nation (each of these are problematic yet also have some evidence to support that way of thinking about it). And certainly in today's world many syncretic identities are possible. Given the multiplicity of ways to have Jewish 'heritage' I think it's the height of idiocy to suggest that someone who joins the Jewish faith does not in fact share in that story, whatever their specific genetics. I'd bet you very good money that Ivanka and Jared have far more in common from a 'heritage' perspective than Jared might with an Ethiopian Falash Mura, despite that he and the Falash Mura share a common - albeit very distant - heritage.

Irrespective of that, I'm still unsure why it should matter whether one is born 'Jewish' - however you are choosing to define it - as to whether Donald Trump's comments were rather offensive.

[Being]

... I'm still unsure why it should matter whether one is born 'Jewish' - however you are choosing to define it - as to whether Donald Trump's comments were rather offensive.

Someone born and raised Christian, converted to Judaism, is not necessarily going to process any comments related to Judaism the same as someone born into the faith.

[wiggin]

Someone born and raised Christian, converted to Judaism, is not necessarily going to process any comments related to Judaism the same as someone born into the faith.

Pretty sure that Jews of all stripes - converts or not - are not huge fans of Christian theology that supports Israel only as a vehicle for the eventual Rapture - where most or all of said Jews are likely to perish.

Similarly I doubt any Jews find claims that Trump is King of Israel or viewed by Israelis as the second coming of God to be appropriate, accurate, or inoffensive. It's not a crazy subtle point of Jewish culture we're talking about here.


You're making this big delineation that, sure, I can in principle agree with. There are cultural fissures in Judaism (as a religion or an ethnicity or nation) that mean that different people will view events through different lenses. Converts, ba'alei t'shuvah, chozrim b'shealah, various religious denominations, nations (or even cities) of recent-ish origin, socio-economic status, gender, etc. Just like any other grouping there are a multitude of perspectives. But I think the convert/native question is, first, not particularly salient in most cases (I can tell you that most converts I know are far more socialized into Jewish culture and practice than your average American Jew), and second, far from the biggest determinant of how a given Jewish person might view the world. Furthermore, your language was extremely problematic, and if applied to another group would be obviously wrong. Would you say that an immigrant to the US is not a 'true' American because they aren't native born? Would you discount their views because they aren't American enough for you or they don't have the same exact cultural context?

[Lewkowski]

I still can't see how any devout Christian doesn't see Trump as an anti-Christ figure.

Wut?

[Being]

nothing to quote

I'm just saying that Israel is not all about religion so get over it. Zionism depends completely on recruitment.

[wiggin]

I'm just saying that Israel is not all about religion so get over it. Zionism depends completely on recruitment.

You're really wandering here, so I'll leave this alone after this post. You started by speculating about how converts vs. natural born Jews might differ in their feelings about Christian theology that motivates support of the modern State of Israel. How you got from that to Israel being about religion and Zionism depending recruitment I haven't a clue.

[Aimless]

Probably depends on whether you are truly Jewish or just an adopted one.

Or, more plausibly, it may depend on where a person lands on the fuckwit scale. You might have had a better case if you'd tried to discuss messianic judaism in the US.

[Aimless]

Are we still saying "cringe"?

Twitter Link

[Being]

... You might have had a better case if you'd tried to discuss messianic judaism in the US.

This thread is about Zionuts.

[GGT]

Pretty sure that Jews of all stripes - converts or not - are not huge fans of Christian theology that supports Israel only as a vehicle for the eventual Rapture - where most or all of said Jews are likely to perish.

Thanks for answering my question (even tho it got sidetracked). It's obviously a complicated, multi-faceted issue....but how does Israel's government deal with the US when our government/political leadership is increasingly influenced (and dominated) by Christian Theology fundamentalists?

Christians United for Israel has more members than the entire US Jewish population. While its founder (Hagee) has controversial views that are probably offensive to Jews (Christian superiority) they're still an influential force in US politics...and are welcomed into Israel as "religious tourists". There's an Israeli law that bans BDS supporters, so the whole "principles" thing is confusing.

Even phrasing the question is difficult, but I hope you know what I mean. Calling out the POTUS for making anti-Semitic comments is difficult, especially for Israel, but if Netanyahu can't do it....it's even more confusing.

[wiggin]

Thanks for answering my question (even tho it got sidetracked). It's obviously a complicated, multi-faceted issue....but how does Israel's government deal with the US when our government/political leadership is increasingly influenced (and dominated) by Christian Theology fundamentalists?

Whether or not your stipulation about the US government is correct, the general position of successive Israeli governments is to politely ignore the Christian underpinnings of part of the US fascination with Israel. It more or less boils down to 'the fewer questions we ask, the better'.

Obviously some people are uncomfortable with that aspect of US support for Israel, and some Jewish religious authorities are leery of accepting donations from Christian organizations for precisely this reason. Plenty of Israelis (and others) are broadly interested in weaning Israel off of all US aid in order to sever some of the unhealthy parts of the relationship (which can include some of this evangelical tinge), though obviously mainstream Israeli politicians and pro-Israel lobby groups in the US are willing to accept the trade-off given Israel's challenging economic and security environment.