Zionuts

[Hazir]

Committing to a no quarter principle is all by itself a violation of the rules of war. We're way out of the realm of interpretation of the rule, the rule has been shoved out of the way. Same goes for the instruction not to provide medical care to Hamas captives. I understand that instruction isn't fully applied, but again, rule put out of service.

I know why the mobilization has this size, those considerations change nothing about my statement about annihilation as a goal.

The implication of what you say is that you are mentally already ready for business as using. Which I do not understand.

[wiggin]

Where do you see they have committed to a no quarter principle? There's been harsh rhetoric, but Israeli forces have taken Hamas prisoners. The large number of Hamas casualties (2000?) are because most of them have been killed while fighting.

Since when have Hamas captives not received medical care? Where are you getting this information?

[Hazir]

Both prime minister and minister of defense have declared it. Don't try to play that down as just statements, because it won't work. You can't in public remove restraints then say you didn't mean it if the boots on the ground act accordingly. Every Hamas member is a dead man is a killing order.

[wiggin]

You know what, Hazir? If we see widespread killing of captives because of this 'order' that's obviously a colloquialism I'll acknowledge your point. Until then, I will assume that Israel will continue to operate as it has for the last 75 years (and, indeed, for the past week).

[Loki]

Would you say the same thing if you heard similar rhetoric from Putin?

Israel is basically saying that they'll commit crimes against humanity if the hostages aren't returned: https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-...-east-67073970

[Loki]

Hours into a major attack and the person giving orders was a retired general: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/12/w...as-israel.html

That's some amazing incompetence in terms of doctrine, training, tactics, supplies, etc.

[Being]

Has anyone thought of allowing the Palestinians to establish a Casino in every town in Israel? That worked to help appease the natives in California.

[Hazir]

You know what, Hazir? If we see widespread killing of captives because of this 'order' that's obviously a colloquialism I'll acknowledge your point. Until then, I will assume that Israel will continue to operate as it has for the last 75 years (and, indeed, for the past week).

I understand you want to see it that way, but it's not what is happening by a far shot.

[wiggin]

Would you say the same thing if you heard similar rhetoric from Putin?

Israel is basically saying that they'll commit crimes against humanity if the hostages aren't returned: https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-...-east-67073970

Do the Russian armed forces have a well documented history of taking prisoners and providing them with medical care?

(I'm afraid your link seems to be useless, not sure specifically which statement you were referring to.)

I understand you want to see it that way, but it's not what is happening by a far shot.

Actually, Hazir, it's exactly what is happening so far. In the last ~48 hours we've gotten a lot more photographs and videos out of the combat zone, including showing IDF troops taking a number of Hamas prisoners. Just a couple hours ago we got helmet cam video from a commando unit retaking a border post and rescuing holed up troops. They are clearly seen arresting a number of Hamas fighters as the battle wound down. There are numerous other videos and photos of Hamas fighters being taken prisoner in the last few days.

The one person in the Israeli government most likely to back a 'shoot all Arabs on sight' doctrine - someone who should never have been on a ballot, let alone a minister (aka Itamar Ben Gvir) - announced that they're moving to overcrowding conditions in the nation's jails to accommodate the current and expected ongoing influx of Hamas detainees as the war continues. Clearly the government, the military, and the broader public fully expect to not be implementing a 'no quarter' policy.

I have no doubt that there will be some Hamas fighters who will be killed when they should be arrested. It's likely in any war, and has been documented in notable incidents in the past with Israeli troops (Elor Azaria being the most famous one). However I do not believe it will be explicit or implicit policy, and I believe large numbers of Hamas members will be detained and not shot on sight, as has been Israel's routine practice.

[Loki]

So we should ignore top Israeli officials threatening to commit crimes against humanity and seemingly telling their own troops to commit war crimes because Israel has a history of committing relatively few war crimes?

The link said if anything happens to the hostages, Gaza won't get food, medicine, or electricity.

[wiggin]

So we should ignore top Israeli officials threatening to commit crimes against humanity and seemingly telling their own troops to commit war crimes because Israel has a history of committing relatively few war crimes?

I'm not saying we should ignore them, but we shouldn't assume that political hyperbole is meant to be taken literally or will be taken literally based on Israel's longstanding practice and cultural norms.

If, for example, we find that it was used as justification for widespread killing of surrendered Hamas members, it could be used as evidence of command responsibility and premeditation on the part of the leaders in question.

The link said if anything happens to the hostages, Gaza won't get food, medicine, or electricity.

I've previously said I don't think this is a good idea (except for electricity), but I do not think it's a crime against humanity. IHL wrt sieges is surprisingly vague and has quite a bit of leeway for restricting even basic supplies to a besieged territory. I don't think it's a good idea, though.

[Loki]

So if Hamas refuses to release the hostages, you'll be ok with tens of thousands dying from starvation and lack of medical care?

[Aimless]

Violent fascists in Israel's political establishment have a vested interest in undermining key tenets of international law and increasing international political tolerance for war crimes in service to the dehumanization project. It may be detestable, but it's understandable from their detestable perspective—their entire political reality depends on it. The same can't really be said for weird creepy nerds all over the world who've latched on to mealy-mouthed war crime apologetics as their personal special interest of choice. Granted, customary internet law has a well-established prohibition on yucking people's yums, but it can't be denied that there are better yums to be had. Hate seeing this most annoying of niche nerd hobbies getting another renaissance in 2023.

Deliberately starving besieged civilians is illegal. People who aren't war-crime apologists have steadily moved towards a more expansive understanding of this prohibition, under which "incidental" but predictable and significant violations of civilians' right to freedom from hunger are considered illegal under most circumstances; self-serving criminals and their contemptible water carriers, meanwhile, disagree. Who to believe hmm idk idk it's so difficult.

[Hazir]

Both prime minister and minister of defense have declared it. Don't try to play that down as just statements, because it won't work. You can't in public remove restraints then say you didn't mean it if the boots on the ground act accordingly. Every Hamas member is a dead man is a killing order.

And now IDF CoS H. Halevi repeats the same words.

[Hazir]

So if Hamas refuses to release the hostages, you'll be ok with tens of thousands dying from starvation and lack of medical care?

You're saying no part of you would be ok with that? Not even if you are confronted with the story of a young person trying to do right by people, including Palestinians, mowed down because he is a Jew?

[Loki]

You're saying no part of you would be ok with that? Not even if you are confronted with the story of a young person trying to do right by people, including Palestinians, mowed down because he is a Jew?

Seeing one group of innocent people die won't make me feel better about a different group of innocent people dying. Perhaps my distant relatives in Ashkelon would disagree, but I don't recall the post-9/11 bloodlust leading to any positive long-term outcomes.

[Hazir]

Seeing one group of innocent people die won't make me feel better about a different group of innocent people dying. Perhaps my distant relatives in Ashkelon would disagree, but I don't recall the post-9/11 bloodlust leading to any positive long-term outcomes.

And if it were possible to kill every Hamas terrorist without collateral damage, but also without exceptions?

[Steely Glint]

You're saying no part of you would be ok with that? Not even if you are confronted with the story of a young person trying to do right by people, including Palestinians, mowed down because he is a Jew?

"The killing of civilians is barbaric, reprehensible act, and that is why I would fully support Israel levelling apartment blocks and using mass starvation as a weapon on civilians"

[Loki]

Four out of five Jewish Israelis believe the government and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu are to blame for the mass infiltration of Hamas terrorists into Israel and the massacre that followed, a new Dialog Center poll released on Thursday found.

An overwhelming majority – 86% of respondents, including 79% of coalition supporters, said the surprise attack from Gaza is a failure of the country’s leadership, while a staggering 92% said the war is causing anxiety.

Furthermore, almost all the respondents (94%) believe the government must bear some responsibility for the lack of security preparedness that led to the assault, with over 75% saying the government holds most of the responsibility.

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-767880

[Hazir]

Well, if you look at the arrogance that led to the faith in the fence and the superiority of Israeli intelligence over what Egyptians said, you can't really look anywhere else for the people responsible for making the massacre possible. I can't even start to imagine how it must fee if your state and government AND armed forces have let you down so completely.

It could barely have turned out worse if Netanyahu had wanted this to happen. The man should step down and live out his live in shame. Usually you wouldn't change out the captain in the middle of the fight. But this one is so incompetent even that principle no longer is as sound as it used to be.

[Being]

The principle of humane warfare is not plausible even if the intention is done on humanitarian grounds. This is because the strategic and tactical elements of warfare as well as their subordinate dimensions like culture, ethics and geography are not deterministic but rather nonlinear.

https://www.e-ir.info/2010/02/09/%E2...r%20nonlinear.

[Hazir]

So. We're getting to the point that mainstream media start publishing pictures of the results of the pogrom. The descriptions alone are chilling. Enough so that I have sufficient justification for any collateral damage in the annihilation of Hamas. Up to and including the hostages.

[Loki]

Well, if you look at the arrogance that led to the faith in the fence and the superiority of Israeli intelligence over what Egyptians said, you can't really look anywhere else for the people responsible for making the massacre possible. I can't even start to imagine how it must fee if your state and government AND armed forces have let you down so completely.

It could barely have turned out worse if Netanyahu had wanted this to happen. The man should step down and live out his live in shame. Usually you wouldn't change out the captain in the middle of the fight. But this one is so incompetent even that principle no longer is as sound as it used to be.

Especially when his whole rationale for staying in power for over a decade was because it supposedly made Israel more secure.

How do you kill Hamas? Israel has little intelligence of the situation on the ground. I doubt it knows where most leaders are, let alone the foot soldiers. And I don't see any way Israel can find out without a massive and lengthy occupation.

[wiggin]

So if Hamas refuses to release the hostages, you'll be ok with tens of thousands dying from starvation and lack of medical care?

That's not the alternative, Loki. There is time before you get anywhere near starvation in Gaza, and the situation on the ground will change long before that. I have been clear multiple times that I do not think this is a good policy and that it's also largely irrelevant since nothing will be getting through the Gaza-Israel border anytime soon other than troops, given Hamas' penchant for attacking humanitarian convoys crossing into the Strip and the heavily damaged and mined border. It was always going to be true that aid would have to flow through Rafah for the time being, and Israel didn't need to announce any policy to make that true.

My only disagreement with you was whether it was a crime against humanity. IHL has not been updated to address sieges in the modern reality (or urban warfare for that matter) and it imposes relatively few restrictions on military necessity. It appears widely recognized that the law needs to be updated, but it is extremely unclear what update would provide an appropriate balance of military necessity and humanitarian concerns. Whether a specific action in a siege is wise is a different question, and I agree they should not restrict the flow of food and medicine as a policy, though Hamas may make it challenging from a practical perspective.

See for example:

https://lieber.westpoint.edu/siege-law/

https://www.chathamhouse.org/2019/06...ting-civilians

And if it were possible to kill every Hamas terrorist without collateral damage, but also without exceptions?

Hazir, your line of questioning is ridiculous. Your question doesn't assume a counterfactual - what's the alternative? Is the alternative arresting all of them without any collateral damage or loss of life? Then certainly the moral answer to your question should be that no, none of us would kill every Hamas terrorist. If the alternative to your fantasy scenario is a bloody war with thousands of casualties, then obviously we'd take the easy win - I'd press the button myself. But that choice wouldn't support this absurd fixation on justifying outright crimes. Shooting people who could otherwise be arrested is wrong.

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-767880

Loki, I'm surprised it's not 100%. Obviously the government, the military, and the intelligence community failed spectacularly here. Some of the government's actions since then (particularly a variety of ministerial actions and the general politicking over action) have raised even greater ire.

[LittleFuzzy]

Well, the way i understand the reports about this, is that it specifically will be a point of further investigation afterwards. Because there's a strong suspicion Hamas leadership may have fed Israeli intelligence with entirely staged conversations.

Well. . . yeah wasn't that kind of almost a given considering how massive the intelligence failure was? They'd identified how and when Israel would be listening and used that to set them up.

[Hazir]

Deleted

[Being]

Getting as many IDF soldiers into Gaza as they can at one time is probably exactly what Hamas is trying to accomplish. I wonder what kind of nasty surprise they have set up for this. I'd use some heavy-duty ground penetrating sonar surveillance before committing too many troops. Hamas has had years to set this up and the one thing we know for sure is they are more than willing to sacrifice Palestinian civilians to accomplish their goals.

[Aimless]

Getting as many IDF soldiers into Gaza as they can at one time is probably exactly what Hamas is trying to accomplish. I wonder what kind of nasty surprise they have set up for this.

Gaza is nasty enough on its own.

[Being]

Gaza is nasty enough on its own.

Sure. But has Israeli intelligence accounted for all Russian, Chinese, North Korean nukes? are any missing?

[LittleFuzzy]

Getting as many IDF soldiers into Gaza as they can at one time is probably exactly what Hamas is trying to accomplish. I wonder what kind of nasty surprise they have set up for this. I'd use some heavy-duty ground penetrating sonar surveillance before committing too many troops. Hamas has had years to set this up and the one thing we know for sure is they are more than willing to sacrifice Palestinian civilians to accomplish their goals.

They don't need to. They just need to fight the sort of urban battle that already makes Gaza a nightmare and watch the Israelis flatten things trying to get them. Nuclear weapons also aren't really a concern*. They could have built some dirty radiologicals but those would be hard to blame on Israel (who has actual nukes after all) so I'd think if they had them they'd be more likely to try and use them against Israeli civilian targets.