Malaysia legalizes kiddy marriage for Mohammedans

[LittleFuzzy]

Note this discussion is in fact supposed to be about deciding to do something like get married or have a child before fact, not reacting to an unplanned pregnancy. They are completely different scenarios.

Why? It is almost always, always because of a pregnancy.

[EyeKhan]

Why? It is almost always, always because of a pregnancy.

Because Dread said this: "When I think about this, I don't have a super-duper problem with allowing underage kids to marry each other if both are under 18. I'm all for letting people make stupid choices." And when it comes to children, I think its unconscionable to take that attitude.

So we should completely BAN sex, right? Since things like pregnancy or HIV are more life-altering than marriage?

Somewhere up there I advocated mandatory birth control implants for girls under 21, but of course that's abusrd.

First, you can't ban sex, obviously. Second, you can ban two dopey kids from getting married at 16 or dropping out of school at 13 or whatever other dumb life-altering things they might decide to do. Now, just because you can't by force of law keep teens from having sex, doesn't mean you should give them the opportunity to make terrible errors in other parts of their lives too.

EDIT: Just to soothe away any more anti-absolutist arguments, I've already conceded the absolute terms used so far were unwarranted. It should be "Most 16 year olds have no business making life decisions without counsel from their parents or some other responsible adult."

[Dreadnaught]

How is this entire paragraph anything but personal insults?

I responded to your arguments, such as they were, and you come back with this? After we (the forum) agreed to try and tone down the deconstruction of conversation?

I am sorry but I do not understand the distinction of "light" conversation and how exactly one is supposed to uphold to this invisible standard. Are we to indicate possible use of harsh terms in the thread title, perhaps?



This thread was opened with an article about extending the "right" to marry small children. Why you are setting up this straw-man about banning marriages from consenting 16-year-olds I cannot comprehend.

It's not a straw man, he's just looking at it one way--kids under 16 getting married--rather than in the scarier way--eg. kids under ten getting married. I made the same mistake earlier in this thread, and I know I wasn't trying to set up a straw man or to score points.

To clarify, Minx got this right. I was specifically talking about the basic principle of people marrying when they are 16 or so, as that was a number mentioned in the article. I wasn't looking at this as ten year old kids getting married, which I think is clearly wrong.

That said, Nessus I don't see how/why you would assume I support ten year olds getting married. This is why I specifically said, "I have nothing in common with those who do voluntarily want to get married at the age of 16, but that's on them to make the choice and live with it (and probably get divorced)."

Emphasis on "AT the age of 16". Not "UNDER the age of 16". Your response to this very specific statement was to go sorta nuts and accuse me of being an American Taliban. But the reason I brought it up was in response to Chaloobi's comments, which as we all see were clearly leaning towards making it illegal for 16 year olds to marry.

[Nessus]

To clarify, Minx got this right. I was specifically talking about the basic principle of people marrying when they are 16 or so, as that was a number mentioned in the article. I wasn't looking at this as ten year old kids getting married, which I think is clearly wrong.

That said, Nessus I don't see how/why you would assume I support ten year olds getting married. This is why I specifically said, "I have nothing in common with those who do voluntarily want to get married at the age of 16, but that's on them to make the choice and live with it (and probably get divorced)."

Emphasis on "AT the age of 16". Not "UNDER the age of 16". Your response to this very specific statement was to go sorta nuts and accuse me of being an American Taliban. But the reason I brought it up was in response to Chaloobi's comments, which as we all see were clearly leaning towards making it illegal for 16 year olds to marry.

It was really stupid of me not to realize you wanted to have a casual chat about dim-dums, and it is really unfortunate that due to my inability to grasp these things you think I'm a "minefield " It really is sorta nuts to expect that anything should have any relevance to anything else, I mean come on, right? Well, except the posts Chaloobi will make in the future, but we're all savvy to those. You got some numbers right, you were having a good time, and I went and ruined everything. I hope we can move past this as a community, and maybe have a laugh at stupid people's expense together!

[Aimless]

Well come on if at some point you come to the conclusion that someone here endorses pedophilia then it makes sense to take a closer look at matters or at the very least to be cautious... it'd be like someone reading a study that shows poop to be tastier than chocolate and then going around calling everyone assholes.

Or, to take a more pertinent example, when Loki implied that I support the right of adults to drug and rape underaged girls... was he being sensible? Of course not. He certainly wasn't being particularly charitable!

Of course I may be missing the point entirely, in this case.

[Nessus]

Well come on if at some point you come to the conclusion that someone here endorses pedophilia then it makes sense to take a closer look at matters or at the very least to be cautious... it'd be like someone reading a study that shows poop to be tastier than chocolate and then going around calling everyone assholes.

Or, to take a more pertinent example, when Loki implied that I support the right of adults to drug and rape underaged girls... was he being sensible? Of course not. He certainly wasn't being particularly charitable!

Of course I may be missing the point entirely, in this case.

I didn't think Dread was so much for anything as he was just apathetic. I'm not sure if the difference is meaningful in the end, though.

[Ominous Gamer]

Your response to this very specific statement was to go sorta nuts

and here I was thinking your 24 hour disappearing act was because you might have realized that your attitude toward Ness was the kind of crap we were trying to move past.

[Nessus]

I made an unfair personal comment too. It's a work in progress!

[Aimless]

I love it when we love on another

[Hazir]

Lolli I call BS, 16 year olds in general do not decide to have a child. They may frequently engage in everything that is needed to produce a child, but that doesn't mean they are consiously striving for the result of having a baby like you are claiming.

The idea that they should burden the exploration of sexuality above all other complications with a legalized relationship also doesn't sound like a very sane approach to raising one's children.

[littlelolligagged]

Lolli I call BS, 16 year olds in general do not decide to have a child. They may frequently engage in everything that is needed to produce a child, but that doesn't mean they are consiously striving for the result of having a baby like you are claiming.

The idea that they should burden the exploration of sexuality above all other complications with a legalized relationship also doesn't sound like a very sane approach to raising one's children.

There are girls who deliberately try to get pregnant, Hazir. They probably have no clue what they are getting themselves into, but they think it is exactly what they want. Sometimes they do it in bunches

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news...ectid=10391528
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,369103,00.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4187548.ece

http://www.ahealthyme.com/topic/teenpregnancy


http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases...nancy.ssl.html

[Hazir]

There are girls who deliberately try to get pregnant, Hazir. They probably have no clue what they are getting themselves into, but they think it is exactly what they want. Sometimes they do it in bunches

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news...ectid=10391528
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,369103,00.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4187548.ece

http://www.ahealthyme.com/topic/teenpregnancy


http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases...nancy.ssl.html

I know there are teenage girls who choose to get knocked up. And I do even know that they sometimes follow the silly example of their peers. That doesn't mean though that in the vast majority of the cases the fucking took place in order to make a baby. For the average teenage girl a baby is an unfortunate side-effect of fucking in a situation where precautions (if any put in place at all) failed.

I think you don't help anybody by enhancing the negative sides of teenage sex. It's much more likely you get positive results by encouraging responsable behaviour than by pushing young adolescents into some pidgeonhole just because that suits your religious ideas of morality. Any parent who'd rather see a child go through the trauma of a marriage and a divorce before 20 and being part of a broken family than see that child grow up before life altering choices are made, in my eyes doesn't understand what it means to be a good parent.

[littlelolligagged]

They do still choose to actually have the baby rather than abort, even if the pregnancy was an accident, so they are choosing to be teenage mothers. I'm terribly sorry, but I don't think any woman, even a silly teen, should be forced into aborting (or not aborting) against her will.

And it happens deliberately entirely too frequently, still. I wouldn't be so quick to assume the vast majority are accidental, anyway.

How does Chacha feel about schools handing out free condoms, or girls being able to get other birth control without parental permission?

[Hazir]

I don't think that at any point I said anything as brash as that women of any age should be forced into aborting a pregnancy. What I do think is that it is actually not that hard to inform young people about sensible attitudes towards sexuality. Of course it would mean that you have to shove aside religious considerations in order to deal with reality rather than with the sexual doctrine of this church or the other.

I still don't think that the majority of these teenage girls choose to have children for the sake of having children.

In my own family in most cases children came relatively early by the way. The only case where children came very late was in the case of one of my sisters-in-law who simply had extreme problems carrying out pregnancies. I think she had 3 miscarriages before she had her first child when she was 37.

[EyeKhan]

How does Chacha feel about schools handing out free condoms, or girls being able to get other birth control without parental permission?

It's a great idea. Hell, I already said birth control should be mandatory for underage Persons and that wasn't a joke. Double hell, ideally nobody should parent children before the age of 30, but whatever. The world's full of fucked up people and I'm no exception.

I still don't think that the majority of these teenage girls choose to have children for the sake of having children.

I have distant inlaws that are working on the 3rd generation of girls getting knocked up in high-school and none of them were accidents. Stupid, poverty stricken, addiction, self-destructive, generation on generation of physical, sexual, and psychological abuse, you bet. But no accidents. Mind-boggling family culture....