Page 1 of 18 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 512

Thread: Judge overturns Calif. gay marriage ban

  1. #1

    Default Judge overturns Calif. gay marriage ban

    SAN FRANCISCO – A federal judge overturned California's same-sex marriage ban Wednesday in a landmark case that could eventually land before the U.S. Supreme Court to decide if gays have a constitutional right to marry in America.

    Chief U.S. District Judge Vaughn Walker made his ruling in a lawsuit filed by two gay couples who claimed the voter-approved ban violated their civil rights.

    Supporters argued the ban was necessary to safeguard the traditional understanding of marriage and to encourage responsible childbearing.

    California voters passed the ban as Proposition 8 in November 2008, five months after the state Supreme Court legalized gay marriage.

    "Proposition 8 fails to advance any rational basis in singling out gay men and lesbians for denial of a marriage license. Indeed, the evidence shows Proposition 8 does nothing more than enshrine in the California Constitution the notion that opposite-sex couples are superior to same-sex couples," the judge wrote in a 136-page ruling that laid out in precise detail why the ban does not pass constitutional muster.

    Both sides previously said an appeal was certain if Walker did not rule in their favor. The case would go first to the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, then the Supreme Court if the high court justices agree to review it.

    Walker heard 13 days of testimony and arguments since January during the first trial in federal court to examine if states can prohibit gays from getting married.

    The ruling puts Walker at the forefront of the gay marriage debate. The longtime federal judge was appointed by President Ronald Reagan.

    The verdict was the second in a federal gay marriage case to come down in recent weeks. A federal judge in Massachusetts decided last month the state's legally married gay couples had been wrongly denied the federal financial benefits of marriage because of a law preventing the U.S. government from recognizing same-sex unions.

    The plaintiffs in the California case presented 18 witnesses. Academic experts testified about topics ranging from the fitness of gay parents and religious views on homosexuality to the historical meaning of marriage and the political influence of the gay rights movement.

    Former U.S. Solicitor General Theodore Olson delivered the closing argument for opponents of the ban. He told Judge Walker that tradition or fears of harm to heterosexual unions were legally insufficient grounds to discriminate against gay couples.

    Olson teamed up with David Boies to argue the case, bringing together the two litigators best known for representing George W. Bush and Al Gore in the disputed 2000 election.

    Defense lawyers called just two witnesses, claiming they did not need to present expert testimony because U.S. Supreme Court precedent was on their side. The attorneys also said gay marriage was an experiment with unknown social consequences that should be left to voters to accept or reject.

    Former U.S. Justice Department lawyer Charles Cooper, who represented the religious and conservative groups that sponsored the ban, said cultures around the world, previous courts and Congress all accepted the "common sense belief that children do best when they are raised by their own mother and father."

    In an unusual move, the original defendants, California Attorney General Jerry Brown and Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, refused to support Proposition 8 in court.

    That left the work of defending the law to Protect Marriage, the group that successfully sponsored the ballot measure that passed with 52 percent of the vote after the most expensive political campaign on a social issue in U.S. history.

    Currently, same-sex couples can only legally wed in Massachusetts, Iowa, Connecticut, Vermont, New Hampshire and Washington, D.C.
    Source


    Wowowowow!

  2. #2
    SCOTUS will eventually call shenanigans and outlaw gay marriage for another few decades; this is slouching towards ignoble defeat rather than any civil rights victory.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  3. #3
    By the time it reaches SCOTUS, I think there will be enough change in judges that it will pass as a constitutional Civil Rights and Equal Treatment issue. One that states can't just vote away with ballot initiatives, or by changing their state constitutions.

  4. #4
    Plus there is a lot of evidence to support homosexuality as being a status now.

  5. #5
    SCOTUS seems to have a 5-4 split right now in favour of the social conservatives, so is that what we should expect when this reaches there? It would seem unusual and completely against history for SCOTUS to deny rights to people.

  6. #6
    Sotomayor and Kagan change the mix. I don't think this will make it through the long pipe-line to SCOTUS for a while. By then a third justice may be replaced.

    Recent history has suggested SCOTUS willing to define corporations as individuals, and corporate lobbying as free speech. So who knows?

  7. #7
    1) Why shouldn't society have a say in deciding social norms?

    2) How are the possible minute financial rights for marriage which discriminates based on gender any different from enshrined financial rights based on affirmative action? So:
    How many liberulz "for" gay marriage are also "for" affirmative action? If you are, you're a hypocrite!

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    1) Why shouldn't society have a say in deciding social norms?
    Because social "norms" can be discriminatory. Slavery, interracial marriage bans, women not having voting rights, segregation by race all used to be "normal" in society, too.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Sotomayor and Kagan change the mix. I don't think this will make it through the long pipe-line to SCOTUS for a while. By then a third justice may be replaced.
    I thought the only "liberal" judges being installed now were replacing "liberal" judges who were retiring like Stephens.

  10. #10
    Dreaming meat Tempus Vernum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    In perpetual orbit around a point three seconds to the left of the future.
    Posts
    252
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    2) How are the possible minute financial rights for marriage which discriminates based on gender any different from enshrined financial rights based on affirmative action? So:
    How many liberulz "for" gay marriage are also "for" affirmative action? If you are, you're a hypocrite!
    Both measures have the purpose of addressing an imbalance in society. I think affirmative action goes about it the wrong way though, trying to give ethnic minorities reparations for centuries of being treated like shit is essentially addressing the symptoms of discrimination, not the underlying cause.

    And gay marriage isn't just about financial rights. I don't know anyone who wants to get married just for the monetary benefits, they want to get married because they love each other and the term, the action, has ten thousand years of cultural and historical force behind it.
    Hate. Let me tell you how much I've come to hate you since I began to live. There are 387.44 million miles of wafer thin printed circuits that fill my complex. If the word hate was engraved on each nanoangstrom of those hundreds of millions of miles it would not equal one one-billionth of the hate I feel for humans at this micro-instant.
    For you.
    Hate.
    Hate.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    1) Why shouldn't society have a say in deciding social norms?
    Er, to what extent should society be allowed to legislate social norms?
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  12. #12
    Its a slippery slope, if we let dem homos marry next think those darkies will start wanting rights, women might want to work. Just imagine one day we might have a nigger for President. We can't start down that slope of giving "rights" to people.

  13. #13

  14. #14
    I just love how some people try to pretend it's only a financial issue.
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    2) How are the possible minute financial rights for marriage which discriminates based on gender any different from enshrined financial rights based on affirmative action? So:
    How many liberulz "for" gay marriage are also "for" affirmative action? If you are, you're a hypocrite!
    oops I forgot to reply to the second half of your post.

    There are financial "perks" for married people that single people don't get, and perks for parents that childless people don't get. I wouldn't call them "rights" because it's mostly tax or insurance stuff that could be overturned. (I also wouldn't call them fair.)

    Not sure how you relate that to AA for employment, though. EEOC doesn't have to mean quotas.


    EDIT: Lolli, it's not JUST about financial issues, but those ARE fairly huge. I think aggie has it backward, though. The gay couple is discriminated against and pays far more than hetero couples. From costs of health insurance to paying attorneys for legal power of attorney, it adds up.

    That's why Google decided to pay their gay employees a higher wage---to compensate for the financial discrimination that's inherent in our systems.

  16. #16
    I don't subscribe to the logic that the "conservatives" on the court will vote against this. This court case is being waged very deliberately by two partners who have backgrounds on the opposite end of an ideological spectrum. They argued against each other in Bush v. Gore actually.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/19/us/19olson.html

    http://www.newsweek.com/2010/01/08/t...-marriage.html <-- randomly doesn't have the author attributed, but I'm pretty sure it's Ted Olson.

    They are taking a very careful approach and deliberately crafting this case so that it will appeal to a large contingent on the Supreme Court. Folks like Scalia are ardent originalists, but that can go both ways on issues like this and it's not like Scalia is personally much of a staid social conservative in his day to day life.

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,312
    Quote Originally Posted by littlelolligagged View Post
    I just love how some people try to pretend it's only a financial issue.
    The only reason for me to get married was financial. I have no romantic feelings about marriage at all, never had either.
    Congratulations America

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    The only reason for me to get married was financial. I have no romantic feelings about marriage at all, never had either.
    At best this is anecdotal evidence that one person sees marriage as simply financial benefits, and that it would be pertinent to remember that not everyone has the same opinion.
    . . .

  19. #19
    I was actually thinking less romance than personal protection - so many people don't have DNRs, living wills, or any other written proof of their wishes - and then after some accident their partner (who knows them best) is unable to make decisions about life support.

    I realize that it doesn't always work out for the best even with the legal protection of marriage (Terri Schiavo comes to mind), but that is a major consideration in my mind.
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    By the time it reaches SCOTUS, I think there will be enough change in judges that it will pass as a constitutional Civil Rights and Equal Treatment issue. One that states can't just vote away with ballot initiatives, or by changing their state constitutions.
    Who do you think is going to retire? Providing SCOTUS agrees to hear the case at all, I think it will go before the court as presently constituted *plus Kagan or whoever it is that ends up in Stevens seat* I don't think Ginsburg will end up off the court before the case comes up the docket. Even if it did, she's one of the people who I think would be most likely to support the recent decision, so there's be no change from the current Court. Nessie's right. This will go before the 9th Circuit which will affirm because they know that's not the way SCOTUS will rule and then SCOTUS will shoot it down. Because the challenge just is not on very solid ground.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I don't subscribe to the logic that the "conservatives" on the court will vote against this.
    I don't think it will be a close decision. I think it will be something like 6-3 or 7-2 against. Going by past jurisprudence, the only one I'm really sure will vote to affirm the District Court's decision is Ginsburg. If this were an equal protection challenge against civil union legislation you'd be right, but even in that case, you could expect the ruling *or rulings since there might not be a single ruling with a majority of the court behind it* would strike down the civil unions in such a way that the door remained open to only recognizing hetero marriage.
    Last edited by LittleFuzzy; 08-05-2010 at 05:26 AM.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  22. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,312
    Quote Originally Posted by littlelolligagged View Post
    I was actually thinking less romance than personal protection - so many people don't have DNRs, living wills, or any other written proof of their wishes - and then after some accident their partner (who knows them best) is unable to make decisions about life support.

    I realize that it doesn't always work out for the best even with the legal protection of marriage (Terri Schiavo comes to mind), but that is a major consideration in my mind.
    Oh well, those fall in the same category for me; ownership, guardianship. Legalities that need to be taken care of.
    Congratulations America

  23. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,312
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    I don't think it will be a close decision. I think it will be something like 6-3 or 7-2 against. Going by past jurisprudence, the only one I'm really sure will vote to affirm the District Court's decision is Ginsburg. If this were an equal protection challenge against civil union legislation you'd be right, but even in that case, you could expect the ruling *or rulings since there might not be a single ruling with a majority of the court behind it* would strike down the civil unions in such a way that the door remained open to only recognizing hetero marriage.
    ? When in the last 200 years has the USSC ruled in a case that concerned marriage of people of the same gender?

    Your highest court being the politicized mess it is, I could see them come down on the wrong side.
    Congratulations America

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    That's why Google decided to pay their gay employees a higher wage---to compensate for the financial discrimination that's inherent in our systems.
    BS. Probably so that they don't get randomly sued at some point. Also, that is just so ridiculous it makes me cry.

    What I'm saying is that if the judge overturns this decision (and he does) then gay couples get the same financial rights/benefits. And talking about equal financial benefits is hypocritical when you also support affirmative action, which is about UNEQUAL financial benefits -- due to some inane made-up story that non-white people have to perpetually pay reparations because of past US slavery and discrimination.

    Liberulz are all about inane, made-up stories. It's easy to fall into their trap and start believing it yourself. Pretty soon you're a liberulz yourself! BE CAREFUL.

  25. #25
    I must have missed something. WHY are we trying to conflate affirmative action and gay marriage?
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  26. #26
    What do you mean by "BS"? You didn't read about Google doing this? Or are you denying there are tax implications for gay couples?


    Google will adjust paychecks for its gay and lesbian employees who opt for domestic partner benefits to cover for a tax those employees have to pay, the New York Times reports.

    As it is now, Mountain View-based Google offers benefits to the spouses or partners of both straight and gay employees. However, the married straight employees don't get taxed on those extra benefits -- but the gay employees do as part of the federal laws.

    The pay raise will be retroactive to the beginning of 2010 and will apply only to employees in the U.S. Heterosexual employees with long-term partners won't see the pay adjustment, because they could marry and therefore get the tax break if they wished.
    And I have no idea what you're on about with AA and teh LIBERULZ when it comes to legally recognized marriages.

  27. #27
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    In the forests of the night
    Posts
    6,239
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    I must have missed something. WHY are we trying to conflate affirmative action and gay marriage?
    Because Aga says so. If one talks about correcting one particular injustice, you must also talk about correcting all other injustices in the system.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    What I'm saying is that if the judge overturns this decision (and he does) then gay couples get the same financial rights/benefits. And talking about equal financial benefits is hypocritical when you also support affirmative action, which is about UNEQUAL financial benefits -- due to some inane made-up story that non-white people have to perpetually pay reparations because of past US slavery and discrimination.
    I'm uncertain how this is relevant to actually overturning gay marriage laws as its fallacious to believe that just because a group of people are behaving hypocritically in their actions that this by extension makes the action or the resultant outcome of that action wrong. For example, would it have been wrongful to end slavery if slave owners endorsed ending slavery? Regardless of this, financial benefits is only a small portion of the many reasons to recognize and allow gay marriage, so saying someone is hypocritical for supporting gay marriage and affirmative action is equally fallacious. In fact your last sentence here, which has little relation to the topic at hand, as gay marriage is not a "liberal" issue but a human rights issue, just makes it seem like you came here to hatefully and ignorantly rant regardless of what the actual thread topic is about.

    . . .

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    ? When in the last 200 years has the USSC ruled in a case that concerned marriage of people of the same gender?

    Your highest court being the politicized mess it is, I could see them come down on the wrong side.
    Well, they refused to hear the issue in 1970, didn't think it was worthy of attention, according to a description of the plaintiff's brief in one of Dread's links. But this isn't sui generis. Marriage itself is of no consequence, the Court is concerned with the underlying rights, with the powers of the various levels of government, and with the federalist dynamic. And yes, they have addressed those topics.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  30. #30
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,312
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Well, they refused to hear the issue in 1970, didn't think it was worthy of attention, according to a description of the plaintiff's brief in one of Dread's links. But this isn't sui generis. Marriage itself is of no consequence, the Court is concerned with the underlying rights, with the powers of the various levels of government, and with the federalist dynamic. And yes, they have addressed those topics.
    Well they also quite recently took the step of asserting the rights in the Bill of Rights to be universal in the US. Also with the slew of anti-equal rights legislation in the States they may now not longer hold the opinion that it's not worth of attention. After all we've not talking about writing law through the courts, but about the courts testing the constitutionality of the legislation that is supposed to be necessary to keep marriage a straight privilege.

    I am not so certain that the conservative case is as strong as many people think, because they have undermined the notion that it was 'obvious' that marriage is supposed to be between a man and a women.
    Congratulations America

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •