This bloody recession

[Momo]

Frack me, but is anyone else struggling to earn some money during these hard times? Or is it just me?

I worked in the IT industry for twelve years and endured four retrenchments during that time (being laid off in other words). South Africa's BEE policy (black economic empowerment) led to me competing for jobs not only against hundreds of other applicants but also at a disadvantage: because I'm white any position I apply for will go to a black or mixed-race person, even if they need more training than I might in the position, because they're previously disadvantaged. How long will it be, I wonder, before white people are classed as previously disadvantaged due to SA's BEE policy? Oh wait, I know: never.
I never spiritually supported the apartheid regime, but now that it's over it's become clear just how screwed up the job market is for someone of my ethnicity.

So I did the next sensible thing and went overseas, to the UK, in fact. I've got family there. There's no BEE system there - although 'equal opportunity' is a buzzword. It seemed no different at all! In fact, due to high levels of immigration, it's just as hard to get work in the UK as it was in SA. Even the Royal Navy has a 1 to 3 year waiting list because people currently working there are loathe to leave - they know they'll struggle to find any work.

I've seen Cambridge graduates working as janitors; or for free for 'work experience'.

Is anyone else around here feeling the pinch?

[Bitter Jeweler]

Sorry, but I'm not.

I am turning work away.

I also find it odd, being that I am in a business selling a luxury item. Is it more of a sign that people who aren't struggling are still spending "as usual"? Granted not all retail stores are doing well, some are struggling, some are doing just fine. A couple big local chains went under, which I think spread that customer base out amongst the mom and pops that were struggling to compete.

Is the problem of finding work more a problem of the glut of IT and business majors?

[Hazir]

No, also not. And going by the experiences of the people around me it's not too difficult at all in Holland.

[Tempus Vernum]

No, also not. And going by the experiences of the people around me it's not too difficult at all in Holland.

Ditto if you replace Holland with new Zealand.

In fact the recession has actually been good for my company, we've grown quite a bit as we sign on new clients and our existing clients expand their marketing budgets.

[termite]

Plenty of jobs here in Western Australia, plenty of SAfricans too - all of whom are here for the same reasons you went to the UK. Although the IT industry is not the strongest sector, if you are willing to work in a remote area for shit-loads of cash you can find work in the minerals (mining) sector, some of which would include IT work. All the jobs in that sector are Fly IN/Fly OUT so you can still live in the city (and party on!) but work in the more isolated north west region. (2 weeks on, 1 week off is common). Not sure what hurdles you would have to jump through to get here though and if you were willing to travel to find work perhaps Amsterdam is a better option given the distances involved.

The brain drain in South Africa has been a disaster for that country thanks to the retarded BEE policy and since the vast majority of SAfricans are either black or mixed race it would be political suicide to put a stop to it. I have several white SAfrican employees that are qualified in their fields and have taken their skills out of SA - but there are many many more just like them here. Many of them also own and run successful businesses here which they had little chance of achieving back in SA.

[Flixy]

I'm not on the job market yet, but I get the impression that it's not bad for people with my education to get jobs around here. The only people I know who lost jobs during this recession lost it right at the beginning, and AFAIK they all have them back or retired by now. And the company that let go of my brother at the start of the recession called him to ask him back.

[GGT]

Depends on where you live, your background, and age. You're definitely not alone in your impression though, Momo.

My area has lost a lot of light manufacturing, construction, skilled trades, and even professional jobs related to the housing bust (engineers, architects, etc.). Many new college grads either live at home with parents or decide to get a master's, waiting it out, because they can't find a job. Some are doing internships for free, just to plump their resume.

It's common to see people expanding the radius for an income. (Even my dentist drives about 150 miles round trip from home to office, traveling over state lines.)

The only upside for a homeowner is that it's become much cheaper to do renovations and landscaping projects. I get fliers and mailers every day from trade people out-bidding each other, it's pretty dog-eat-dog....

I hope it works out for you. Might be a long slog.

[DecoyMilk]

Where in UK are you living, Momo?

So far *touchwood*, I've been okay. Our company made a 97% profit increase on last year, and our whole department had a massive reshuffle and I'm still here so can't be doing too badly.

The summer is always a tough time to get a job, think of all those millions of graduates all scouring to get jobs, but hopefully it will ease off as the winter months approach.

Don't know where you're based, but if you're still struggling to find somewhere in IT support, I can have a sniff around with our IT guys, see if they have anything going

[Dreadnaught]

It sure feels like we're heading into rough times again this fall, but that's totally speculative. My company has a hiring freeze and career advancement has gotten rather slow, the focus is on making the wheels turn.

It is indeed pretty bad that well-intentioned policies just become entitlements that lead to a brain drain. Though what kind of IT area do you specialize in Momo?

[Lor]

Our production has picked right up, we are now running treble shifts in both Litho & Bindery areas + weekend overtime due to work capacity increasing rather dramatically. We are also out sourcing our work to our sister companies in the group as we are overloaded and work is still on it's way.

This will probably continue for a while i hope.

My brother is in the I.T trade and he's doing well, he started his own company up is more than happy.

[wiggin]

I think there are definitely some cyclical unemployment issues here still (read: US) but the larger issue facing us is long-term structural unemployment due to skill gaps. That shouldn't be a major problem for someone with training/experience in IT, which is still very much a growth industry.

I think the days of mass firings are mostly behind us (excepting some restructuring as a result of mergers/bankruptcies/etc.) in the current recession, but employers are still pretty leery about adding jobs they might not be able to support in the long term, depending on growth in AD (which is currently in quite a bit of a shortfall). Certain forward-looking sectors are doing better than others, mostly because they rely on long-lead times and can bank on some sort of growth in the future. My wife's company is doing quite well right now (they actually paid out some bonuses early because they're exceeding their sales targets by so much), but that's mostly because their clients (read: medical device companies) are currently investing in R&D/PD of new products to catch the upswing in a few years.

[RandBlade]

Also not struggling. Working bloody hard, but the recession has provided the opportunities to achieve more in 2 years than I had done before that.

[Ominous Gamer]

County has cancelled our last furlough day, which will add a nice bit of change back into my paycheck.
They claimed they have managed to save enough money over the year that the last unpaid day off was no longer needed. Among other messures, moving over to a black and white letter head was given a mention

[Hazir]

County has cancelled our last furlough day, which will add a nice bit of change back into my paycheck.
They claimed they have managed to save enough money over the year that the last unpaid day off was no longer needed. Among other messures, moving over to a black and white letter head was given a mention

Hey funny that you mention that; at work we quite suddenly started recieving white paper for our letters that has just a small version of our logo on it rather than the rather slick coloured paper we used to use. I bet that saves a lot of money.

[RandBlade]

I don't have any letter-headed paper. We have email and in the very rare occasions now we need a letter-headed paper I have a Word template with an image on the top of it.

Used to cause a lot of confusion with some government departments (esp. pay-related ones) which seem to be permanently stuck in the 1970's.

"Can you fax over to us .... on a letter-headed paper"
"No, we neither use letter-headed paper nor do we use a fax machine, but if you email me I can email you back the answer to your question"
"No we can't use email, don't you have access to a fax machine?"
"No fax here and no access to it. You'll have to post it to me instead then if you can't email it."
"We need it urgently, can't you go to a fax machine"
"NO WE DON'T HAVE A FAX MACHINE"
"OK, we'll need it posting in then on letter-headed paper"
"We don't have letter-headed paper"
"Use a company stamp then"
"Don't have that either"
"OK, just email it to me then"
"Good. I thought you weren't allowed email ..."

Why in the year 2010 anyone needs to use faxes is beyond me.

[Illusions]

Why in the year 2010 anyone needs to use faxes is beyond me.

Its pretty fast and efficient when it comes to sending things that are on paper to other people who want a physical copy. They also keep working if internet service goes down. They can also serve other functions, as Quest Diagnostics has a system in place where they can fax/print lab reports on their own forms/letterhead direct to a doctor's office via a dedicated setup often as batch jobs.

[Timbuk2]

Its pretty fast and efficient when it comes to sending things that are on paper to other people who want a physical copy.

Yes indeed. A damn sight quicker than scanning the document, receiving the scanned image, converting that image to suitable, emailable form, emailing it, and the person on the receiving end then printing it out.

And not a lot of people have scanners either.

[Lor]

Yes indeed. A damn sight quicker than scanning the document, receiving the scanned image, converting that image to suitable, emailable form, emailing it, and the person on the receiving end then printing it out.

And not a lot of people have scanners either.

Without being a dick, wouldn't most systems have the ability to exports reports/PO etc as PDF's?

We still use our fax machine on the odd chance, we've tried to become more of a paper-less office as we can email PO's and what have you. However i find it's the older generation that struggle with the concept since they are stuck in old ways.

[DecoyMilk]

I don't have any letter-headed paper. We have email and in the very rare occasions now we need a letter-headed paper I have a Word template with an image on the top of it.

Used to cause a lot of confusion with some government departments (esp. pay-related ones) which seem to be permanently stuck in the 1970's.

"Can you fax over to us .... on a letter-headed paper"
"No, we neither use letter-headed paper nor do we use a fax machine, but if you email me I can email you back the answer to your question"
"No we can't use email, don't you have access to a fax machine?"
"No fax here and no access to it. You'll have to post it to me instead then if you can't email it."
"We need it urgently, can't you go to a fax machine"
"NO WE DON'T HAVE A FAX MACHINE"
"OK, we'll need it posting in then on letter-headed paper"
"We don't have letter-headed paper"
"Use a company stamp then"
"Don't have that either"
"OK, just email it to me then"
"Good. I thought you weren't allowed email ..."

Why in the year 2010 anyone needs to use faxes is beyond me.

Most of our power stations use fax machines. We also haves fax that emails all faxes to us, so they can fax it, and we receive it as a PDF image in our email. Top banana

[RandBlade]

Yes indeed. A damn sight quicker than scanning the document, receiving the scanned image, converting that image to suitable, emailable form, emailing it, and the person on the receiving end then printing it out.

And not a lot of people have scanners either.

Except that most documents and data are already electronic in the first place now. So we'd need to print it off, fax it, so that they can receive the fax and enter the details back into their computer system computer . Rather than just email the document we already have to them

As for scanning and emailling that takes about 2 or 3 clicks total for me. A damn site quicker than when we had the old fax machine before we binned it where we'd have to get it out of storage, hunt for the cables for it, plug it up and unplug a phone line, mess around dialling the numbers and forcing the paper through ... Even if its already set up I don't see how its any easier than putting it in a scanner and pressing the scan button. My scanner even has a "scan and email as PDF" button so all I have to do is put the paper in the scanner, press that button and select the email address. Easy.

As for receiving the image etc how hard exactly is it for anyone today to receive an email and I don't know any business that can't read PDF's, its a universal standard for sending documents.

They also keep working if internet service goes down.

How often does your internet service go down but the phone line still is working?

They can also serve other functions, as Quest Diagnostics has a system in place where they can fax/print lab reports on their own forms/letterhead direct to a doctor's office via a dedicated setup often as batch jobs.

What an absolute waste of paper! Why not just email them?

I receive hundreds of automated messages that used to be entered on a computer on one side, printed out, faxed to us, we'd have had to take the fax print out and enter it into our computer system. Now instead there is software so a message is sent directly the originating computer which can now be anywhere in the country - there's even an iPhone app - to a server in Milton Keynes, then out to us and into our computer system all automatically. No print-outs, nothing. Much quicker, much less effort, much more efficient and no paper.

[Ominous Gamer]

How often does your internet service go down but the phone line still is working?

I've never lost phone service at work when the internet goes bunk.

[Illusions]

Except that most documents and data are already electronic in the first place now.

Perhaps for whatever industry you work in, but this isn't the case for all of them.

As for scanning and emailling that takes about 2 or 3 clicks total for me.

Faxing something consists of putting the documents in a tray, dialing a number, and pressing send. While this might be an equivalent process for you, the person on the other end has to go through the hassle of retrieving and printing out the document you sent as opposed to just grabbing it from the fax machine.

A damn site quicker than when we had the old fax machine before we binned it where we'd have to get it out of storage, hunt for the cables for it, plug it up and unplug a phone line, mess around dialling the numbers and forcing the paper through ...

So, because your business had a terrible method for sending or receiving faxes, all faxing must be terrible?

Even if its already set up I don't see how its any easier than putting it in a scanner and pressing the scan button. My scanner even has a "scan and email as PDF" button so all I have to do is put the paper in the scanner, press that button and select the email address. Easy.

What if the thing you wish to send, after scanning, results in a .pdf that has a file size larger than the attachable limit for the email service you're sending from and that will be receiving it? Or what if you have to send multiple documents that should be received separately on the other end? Are you going to send it multiple times, or just expect the receiving end to split up one massive .pdf document?

How often does your internet service go down but the phone line still is working?

Internet service has more points of failure than telephone service does. You've never had your cable, or DSL modem go out?

What an absolute waste of paper! Why not just email them?

Because people like copies of their medical reports. Its also easier and cheaper to carry and pass around a piece of paper than a computer.

I receive hundreds of automated messages that used to be entered on a computer on one side, printed out, faxed to us, we'd have had to take the fax print out and enter it into our computer system. Now instead there is software so a message is sent directly the originating computer which can now be anywhere in the country - there's even an iPhone app - to a server in Milton Keynes, then out to us and into our computer system all automatically. No print-outs, nothing. Much quicker, much less effort, much more efficient and no paper.

This is another fallacious line of thought where you assume that your method of doing business and work is the universal standard for how everyone does business and their work.

[RandBlade]

Perhaps for whatever industry you work in, but this isn't the case for all of them.

Its not the case in most industries that data is computerised?

Faxing something consists of putting the documents in a tray, dialing a number, and pressing send. While this might be an equivalent process for you, the person on the other end has to go through the hassle of retrieving and printing out the document you sent as opposed to just grabbing it from the fax machine.

Or alternatively: For an email the person can at their leisure/convenience go get it out of their personal in-tray.

For a fax where an office may one communal machine (Rather than personalised email accounts) you have to call the person to say that you're sending a confidential fax, they need to go to the fax machine to ensure they're their to get it rather than someone else getting it. Its more disruptive and more risk of confidential data being taken by the wrong person. I've been told by someone who worked in a large office pre-email how they used to get a queue at the fax machine and sometimes trying to ensure they were the only one to get the fax - while someone else is waiting for a document at the same machine, could be quite awkward.

So, because your business had a terrible method for sending or receiving faxes, all faxing must be terrible?

No, I'm saying it wasn't practical for us so we binned it.

What if the thing you wish to send, after scanning, results in a .pdf that has a file size larger than the attachable limit for the email service you're sending from and that will be receiving it? Or what if you have to send multiple documents that should be received separately on the other end? Are you going to send it multiple times, or just expect the receiving end to split up one massive .pdf document?

1: Why should you have an attachable limit if you're professional? I've dealt with video attachments hundreds of MB - not many PDF's that would have been faxed that could say that!

Internet service has more points of failure than telephone service does. You've never had your cable, or DSL modem go out?

Never had a fax machine break? If your cable goes: Replace it! The internet is far more business-critical for most businesses now than faxes.

Because people like copies of their medical reports. Its also easier and cheaper to carry and pass around a piece of paper than a computer.

Nobody "passes around a computer"

No it's not easier and cheaper to mess around with hundreds of unnecessary pages of printout than emails which are virtually free - unless you currently don't have a computer. Beauty of an email of course is that if you do want a print out - then you can print it out! But unless you want to print out 100% of them its still cheaper not to print 100% out.

This is another fallacious line of thought where you assume that your method of doing business and work is the universal standard for how everyone does business and their work.

No, its an example.

[Illusions]

Its not the case in most industries that data is computerised?

Eventually it may end up computerized, but in some industries, the original output of some tasks or devices is physical paper.

Or alternatively: For an email the person can at their leisure/convenience go get it out of their personal in-tray.

You can do the same with a fax...

For a fax where an office may one communal machine (Rather than personalised email accounts) you have to call the person to say that you're sending a confidential fax, they need to go to the fax machine to ensure they're their to get it rather than someone else getting it. Its more disruptive and more risk of confidential data being taken by the wrong person. I've been told by someone who worked in a large office pre-email how they used to get a queue at the fax machine and sometimes trying to ensure they were the only one to get the fax - while someone else is waiting for a document at the same machine, could be quite awkward.

What about an office with a communal printer? Or perhaps those people prone to knowingly taking documents that don't belong to them should be fired.

1: Why should you have an attachable limit if you're professional? I've dealt with video attachments hundreds of MB - not many PDF's that would have been faxed that could say that!

Not everyone uses the same email services, can afford the same email services, or is a business? Besides that its starting to seem like it would be a hassle to deal with opening an email for, downloading, and printing several dozen documents a day.

Never had a fax machine break? If your cable goes: Replace it! The internet is far more business-critical for most businesses now than faxes.

I'm not certain how either of these are relevant to the discussion as both methods require an operable machine that can both scan and print, which can in effect fail. I was more-so looking at the extra things that can fail, which are different between the two.

Nobody "passes around a computer"

Your inability to identify the benefits of a physical paper copy of a document, and how people interact with them compared to a digital copy amazes me.

No it's not easier and cheaper to mess around with hundreds of unnecessary pages of printout than emails which are virtually free - unless you currently don't have a computer. Beauty of an email of course is that if you do want a print out - then you can print it out! But unless you want to print out 100% of them its still cheaper not to print 100% out.

I don't think you've really thought this through.

No, its an example.

Edit: Alright, so the problem is this - You're viewing a fax machine as a way to send data, which is similar to the function of email. It is not. The purpose of a fax machine is to send a physical copy of a document from one location to another faster or cheaper than a delivery service can. If you're using it for any other reason, you're using it wrong, and the device itself should not be blamed for your improper usage of it. It would be like claiming that a wrench is an inefficient tool because a hammer is better when it comes to dealing with nails.

[RandBlade]

Eventually it may end up computerized, but in some industries, the original output of some tasks or devices is physical paper.

I'm not sure I'd agree with that at all. I can't remember the last business I dealt with that originated tasks with paper. If I go to the bank everything's computerised, for every contract I as a consumer have the only paper dealt with is a signed printout of a computer document printed.

Please name any industries you think are more paper than computer based?

You can do the same with a fax...

Really? Most fax machines I know the fax prints automatically upon receipt.

What about an office with a communal printer?

But then the person printing the document knows the're printing it. The person receiving the fax does not necessarily know the exact time the sender is sending it - unless you add in phone calls etc which are unnecessary for email.

Or perhaps those people prone to knowingly taking documents that don't belong to them should be fired.

Have you ever even heard of the notion of confidentiality. If you pick up confidential data by mistake that's not the same as stealing documents, but its not good.

Not everyone uses the same email services, can afford the same email services, or is a business?

I thought we're talking about businesses. If we're not, then how many home consumers have fax machines? I don't have a fax machine at home, but I do have a computer. If we're not talking about businesses, I suspect more people have a computer than a fax at home!

Besides that its starting to seem like it would be a hassle to deal with opening an email for, downloading, and printing several dozen documents a day.

It takes negligible time and that's assuming you need them all printing. Sounds like it'd be a hassle to deal with fetching several dozen documents a day from a communal fax machine and entering the details from a paper back onto a computer when it was printed off a computer in the first place!

I'm not certain how either of these are relevant to the discussion as both methods require an operable machine that can both scan and print, which can in effect fail. I was more-so looking at the extra things that can fail, which are different between the two.

Yes extra things can break but if they're urgent you'll need to fix them and if they're not then no problem.

Your inability to identify the benefits of a physical paper copy of a document, and how people interact with them compared to a digital copy amazes me.

Your inability to comprehend the benefits of the print button amazes me, if you're that obsessed in wasting paper that 100% of all documents need to be in paper form.

[Illusions]

From my edit above your post:

Alright, so the problem is this - You're viewing a fax machine as a way to send data, which is similar to the function of email. It is not. The purpose of a fax machine is to send a physical copy of a document from one location to another faster or cheaper than a delivery service can. If you're using it for any other reason, you're using it wrong, and the device itself should not be blamed for your improper usage of it. It would be like claiming that a wrench is an inefficient tool because a hammer is better when it comes to dealing with nails.

---

It seems like your entire problem with faxes originates from not understanding what they should be used for, or how to utilize them properly. Perhaps if you're sending confidential information over them you should include a proper fax cover page?

Or that certain documents might make for rather large .pdf documents? I know we went over this, and your retort for it wasn't well thought out, as I doubt all businesses can afford email services which allow for attachments larger than 20 - 100 mb. Or that your average non-business email account does either. I'm actually wondering if there are any free email services that provide an attachment limit for emails above 20mb.

Also doctor's offices and hospitals often deal with a lot more physical documents than computerized ones. I understand that there is a push for electronic medical records, but like you stated originally, its the year 2010 and this isn't really common yet.

[Flixy]

1: Why should you have an attachable limit if you're professional? I've dealt with video attachments hundreds of MB - not many PDF's that would have been faxed that could say that!

Loads of big companies have problems with bandwidth on their networks and don't allow big files, streaming, etc.[/QUOTE]

What about an office with a communal printer? Or perhaps those people prone to knowingly taking documents that don't belong to them should be fired.

Even the printers at my uni allow for secure printing, you put it in the queue with a password, when you are at the printer you type in the password and only then it prints.

Anyway, faxes have their use too, especially at places that aren't fully digital yet, like hospitals. Or with handwritten things, filled out forms, or things that are signed with a pen. Or when you have a whole stack of paper.

[Timbuk2]

Loads of big companies have problems with bandwidth on their networks and don't allow big files, streaming, etc.

Indeed.

Global bank I work for has very strict bandwidth policies; an internal 10MB email attachment limit, and an external 5MB email attachment limit.

My inbox total limit is 90MB, including attachments. If that is exceeded, I cannot send emails until I delete/archive emails to under my limit again.

In other words, our email is very limited. 5MB is ok for text documents and some spreadsheets, but not a lot else.

Image-rich docs and some PP presentations you can forget about sending by email.

[RandBlade]

From my edit above your post:

Alright, so the problem is this - You're viewing a fax machine as a way to send data, which is similar to the function of email. It is not. The purpose of a fax machine is to send a physical copy of a document from one location to another faster or cheaper than a delivery service can. If you're using it for any other reason, you're using it wrong, and the device itself should not be blamed for your improper usage of it. It would be like claiming that a wrench is an inefficient tool because a hammer is better when it comes to dealing with nails.

Eh? I'm misusing it? I'd rather not be using it at all! My grumble was with backwards, typically government services insisting on both sending and receiving data that way.

My issue isn't that I'm unhappy with wrenches, my problem is that others insist on me using a wrench when I get a nail.

It seems like your entire problem with faxes originates from not understanding what they should be used for, or how to utilize them properly.

No, my problem is others asking me to use them inefficiently.

Or that your average non-business email account does either.

Does you average non-business person have a fax machine at home. I bet more people have a computer at home than a fax machine.

Also doctor's offices and hospitals often deal with a lot more physical documents than computerized ones. I understand that there is a push for electronic medical records, but like you stated originally, its the year 2010 and this isn't really common yet.

Actually I was saying it is 2010 not 1970. We should be using electronics more, efficient places do. When I book an appointment with a GP I do so on their computer system by the way.

[Hazir]

Hmm.. actually where I live faxes are just a subset of the informationstream. When I create a document, I can send that document from my PC as an attachment with an email, or fax it from the same PC. The printer we use also works as a scanner and a fax-machine. Scans can be added to emails, stored, as can faxes. Hell, we can even print our faxes

What's most important is; what do you want to put in, and what do you want to get out. IIRC all the snail-mail we send is scanned after which the original copy is destryoed (yes I was suprised too when I heard that but obivously nowadays it's legal to just keep the electronic version on file)