You've apparently never read Empire by Orson Scott Card. I didn't burn it but it's the first book I've ever thrown away.Originally Posted by termite
You've apparently never read Empire by Orson Scott Card. I didn't burn it but it's the first book I've ever thrown away.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
It's getting more intense as 9/11 approaches. Even Gen. Patreus and Sec. of State Clinton felt compelled to comment about the potential harm this Koran burning could cause our military (let alone missionaries). Of course people have the legal right to burn any book, even a Holy Book, but this Dove church pastor seems naive about the media coverage going "viral" and streamed into countries that don't have the same type of open press. This does seem like a "stunt" to me....this guy's beliefs (presumably) wouldn't go up in smoke if someone burned a Bible, so why bother burning a Koran....unless it's just to get media attention?
I'm off on the 11th, I should drive over to this. See if how crazy these people really are.
Question:
How is this different from draw mohammed day?
Why be all bitchy about this, or the WTC mosque, and not the other?
Do you mean me, or anyone in general? I suppose intention matters to me. Draw Mohammed Day is more like South Park or Jon Stewart, the intention is to use humor to get people to think about bigotry or stereo-types. The ground zero Muslim civic center is intended as an interfaith outreach initiative, but this Koran burning is just an incitement aimed at goading hatred. Kind of like Westboro church protesting at gay military funerals.
Its a question for everyone.
I know there will be different answers (ie, some people don't see the mosque as outreach). Personally I don't see them related at all beyond being acts protected by the 1st amendment.
Sure, it's protected speech in the US. But then we could get into defining hate speech, or inciting hate crimes or riots, shouting fire in a crowded theatre. It's slippery when religious speech becomes hate speech. I wouldn't want the government to ban or censor, but in the very least they might have to have a protective police force present "just in case", to keep the peace. Like they do when the KKK marches in parades in Jewish or black neighborhoods.....
If this Dove church goes through with the burning, I hope there's at least another group denouncing them, standing up for religious tolerance, and the media covers it that way. That for every small extremist group, there's an opposite, and also a moderate middle.
Just because you have the right, doesn't make it right. Freedom of speech comes with responsibility.
Such is Life...
Yes. And just because we can say (or do) something doesn't mean we should. Some try to appeal to our sense of etiquette, as a responsibility to not offend someone, whether it's saying nigger, building an Islamic center close to ground zero, drawing Mohammed, or hosting adult services on Craigslist. The difference is that the government didn't do the censoring.
sure, but if we take the cartoon-example then those responsible for the rioting and violence are the people who incited the mob and not the cartoonists. Should there be rioting because of the bookburnings then the responsability for the rioting lays again with those who incited the usually illiterate mob on the other side of the world, and that would not be the pastor.
In both cases we're talking about muslims, not necessarily religious leaders, behaving like even bigger dicks.
there may be a need to use freedom of speech responsibly, but there also a requirement for others not to blackmail, threaten or in other ways behave in dickish ways that undermine free speech, like creating Cairo Declarations of Human Rights. So in that respect we have every right to annoy the fuck out of them.
Ivan, wouldn't that be a condemnation of the press/media propaganda, and nothing to do with being Muslim?
normally I'd agree, but the cartoon case has proven that there's an awful lot of muslims -many whom can't even write or read- that can't help but be outraged in the most violent manner for things published at the other side of the world. It's pathetic really.
Imagine if our society was outraged in the same way for things written, said and done over there? 't Be a full time job, and given what does indeed happen over there, one with a lot more justification.
No, they live in a world with many religions/ideologies and they must accept -peacefully- that theirs is not above criticism or even ridicule. If that is impossible, long term peaceful coexistence is nigh on impossible.
Cartoons don't require reading or writing. It is indeed pathetic that there are so many who can't write or read....
"Our society" has plenty who can read and write, well educated folks who get outraged by things said and done, easily provoked by emotion.Imagine if our society was outraged in the same way for things written, said and done over there? 't Be a full time job, and given what does indeed happen over there, one with a lot more justification.
"They" might also benefit from a free press and open dialogue. Just like the USSR did, or the Chinese might.No, they live in a world with many religions/ideologies and they must accept -peacefully- that theirs is not above criticism or even ridicule. If that is impossible, long term peaceful coexistence is nigh on impossible.
I don't see the connection between burning books and free speech really. Not that I think it should be illegal I just don't get how it is considered speech
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
The free speech guaranteed to Americans has been used to protect other forms of protest, such as burning flags as a symbol of burning a cause. It's a legalese thing.
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
And burning buildings as form of protest is not protected. Hypocrites!
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
My thoughts on this (some of them I've mentioned before)
1. The Koran is not a book anyway, so you can't really burn it.
2. Burning a book is not really a relevant act. It's a bit silly maybe, but that's the extent of it.
3. By playing this whole thing up the way they did, both the media and the authorities are making this book burning into something that's much bigger than it actually is. It went from a silly country bumpking burning some books in his own yard to the 'frontline of the clash of religions and civilisations'.
4. With their constant whining about how this 'endangers the lives of US soldiers', the President, Secretary of State and other leaders are validating the ridiculous idea that the terrorists actually need an excuse to kill US soldiers. I am of the opinion that no additional reason is needed; they want to kill American soldiers because they already think American soldiers need to be killed in order for them to further their cause. This book burning nonsense may be used as a justification, but the people we're talking about are rather good at finding justifications for their killings. If all fails they'll simply claim to be following the will of God.
Congratulations America
Expanding on what Nessus said, it's long been decided that free speech really means free expression. Burning property you own is a form of expression, so it's protected. I know you meant it as a joke, but the building thing only doesn't count because of the public safety issues involved in starting a fire that large. I'm not even sure that's illegal in all cases, and a quick google search seems to indicate that it isn't.
Well in Switzerland that wouldn't be possible because of environment laws. You are not allowed to get rid of your properties by burning it. You would have to recycle it or throw it into the garbage.
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
He'd go a long way towards redeeming himself if he did manage to burn down Facebook
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Are you encouraging him to build a nuclear capability?
Congratulations America
Nessus is a terrorist sympathizer!
Personally, I'm in favor of a printing press somewhere, running 24 hours a day, churning out beautifully bound and printed bibles, korans, torahs, vedas &c and dumping them right off the conveyor belt and straight onto a bonfire, where they belong. This should be done in secret for about 15 years where upon this fact will be announced to the world and we can see if any of the apparently dire spiritual consequences of burning "holy" books have taken place.
Very true.
That's a very simplistic view of the situation. Not everyone who decided to take potshots at coalition troops in Iraq or Afghanistan is a terrorist fanatic: there are cases of British soldiers dying in Iraq after being essentially mobbed by locals who were upset about something the British had done, or were perceived to have done. So, there's a very real threat to life caused by this stupid little mans pointless and childish gesture. Just today there was a protest in Afghanistan which ended with three people - protesters - being shot after they tried to climb the barricades on a German-manned NATO base. That's three people in hospital because of this otherwise irrelevant guy and - as you pointed out - the media shitstorm over something that most people wouldn't even know was happening otherwise.4. With their constant whining about how this 'endangers the lives of US soldiers', the President, Secretary of State and other leaders are validating the ridiculous idea that the terrorists actually need an excuse to kill US soldiers. I am of the opinion that no additional reason is needed; they want to kill American soldiers because they already think American soldiers need to be killed in order for them to further their cause. This book burning nonsense may be used as a justification, but the people we're talking about are rather good at finding justifications for their killings. If all fails they'll simply claim to be following the will of God.
When the sky above us fell
We descended into hell
Into kingdom come
Giving this guy the attention and defacto respect he's gotten from various figures in the US govt was stupid bordering on absurd. Big mistake.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
Do you also believe America has got itself to blame for 9/11 ?
Also, maybe it is a bit superfluous, but do I have to remind you that those violent protests took place without even a leaf of a book being close to fire?
Last edited by Hazir; 09-10-2010 at 11:37 PM.
Congratulations America
Nuclear weapons are very un-economical weapons.
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Not if it's facebook you want to burn.
Congratulations America
Yes, they are.
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
So now the Westboro Baptist Church is stepping in to ensure that Korans will be burned today. I wonder if they will burn in in Arabic or in a translated version. And if that distinction will be lost on the rioters where=ever.
Congratulations America
Someone should sneak in a few Arabic translations of the Bible
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
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