If you say so.
If you say so.
AFAIK, it pretty much always is. Even if given as stock, it still counts as income and is taxed accordingly. It's not treated exactly like income though, and GGT's suggestion would cause it to actually be taxed less in some cases - there are rules about how pretty the parachute can be before it triggers extra taxes, and those rules wouldn't apply for normal income.Originally Posted by wiggin
I didn't learn basic maths with money. I seem to recall blocks being used.Basic math is taught using manipulatives. We're talking kindergarteners and first or second graders here. Showing them a bank statement or starting out with e-money does not work so well. You didn't learn that way, now did you?
Moving on, examples like I gave are typical questions. "Bob has 10 apples and wants to share them evenly between 5 people. How many apples does everybody get"
By the time we reached money-related maths questions yes I was dealing with 'virtual' money. My teacher never gave me money and said work out this mathematical equation using this money. You'd get questions on paper with no cash involved.
No s**t Sherlock. Yes there'll be real paper, but the money will be transferred electronically. I am not going to buy a house using cash, nor am I going to just write out a cheque for it. Our deposit has already been paid - we did that via online banking. They gave the Sort Code, Account Number and Reference Number and we paid the money in. Done. Electronically.OH! So you haven't closed the deal yet? Well, come back after your official property closing, where you have to sign all the legal papers, and tell us all what both banks (seller, buyer) expected. I'm betting there are hard copies involved. Real paper signed in real ink, with some sort of prothonetary or notary public.
So I made up the situation? Am I lying?You're mixing things up because you're not familiar with the US. Airport terminal baggage handlers will always have a uniform and won't demand a damn dime.
I know he wasn't official, but he came up to me (travelling on my own) and offered to carry my bags and insisted on $20, which I did not pay.
Taxes are supposed to be tips same as earnings. The problem is people don't always honestly declare tips so they get estimated based on total sales. If we abolished cash tips and they were done electronically then they'd be taxed fairly.That is right, is it not? To be fair about it? If the tax-rate is unfair, cut it for everyone.
As for less than minimum wage workers, that shouldn't be legal. And almost without fail people being paid less than minimum wage are getting paid ... cash in hand. Again, eliminating the black market would be a good thing
I'm of two minds about the 'paying waiters less than minimum wage' argument. Most of the waiters I have known have made well in excess of minimum wage through a combination of salaries and tips. Given that the culture in the US still favors a restaurant tip of at least 15%, raising wages would raise prices, which would in turn raise to total tip amount - and drastically overcompensate workers for what is essentially unskilled labor (and make a dinner out quite a bit pricier). Of course the easy solution is to drop expectations of a large tip, but I doubt that's going to happen.
That being said, if tips moved to a cashless system (or at least were better tracked - the current tracking systems are absurd), it would be much easier for the IRS or another regulatory body to ensure that employees are making at least minimum wage between tips and wages. Evasion is a huge issue here, but some guarantees of decent income combined with better tracking would probably close a lot of the loopholes people exploit.
I'm personally not in favor of completely abolishing cash just because I like to have the option of a freely convertible, portable, very liquid and very fungible item. That being said, I don't think it should be used much by most people because of the aforementioned reasoning. Getting rid of cash just to cut down on black and grey markets is probably a case of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
I don't think society is yet ready to abolish cash. I do think that is a possible future though.
I could take card transactions on my iPhone if I download a particular app. Obviously not everyone has an iPhone (or equivalent) and not everyone has the app (I don't), but it wouldn't surprise me if 80% of the adult population has a smart phone at least as capable as the iPhone in 10 years time.
8 years ago I last used a cheque and didn't see the point of them, never thought they'd be abolished though. In 8 years time cheques will have been abolished from the UK. 30 years ago that wouldn't have seemed possible or likely, who knows if cash could go the same way?
But tax fraud is fun!
We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.
Checks are essentially fancy IOUs (with poor security, to boot). I only use them to pay rent. Cash is a much more important medium of exchange that requires no institutions to work (other than the government/treasury, of course). I do think that we are moving to a world where less and less cash matters - hell, even in the developing world systems like M-PESA greatly reduce transaction costs of cash for microfinance/micropayment systems - in fact, phone-based 'money' has gotten far more adoption in other parts of the world than places like the US where the financial system is pretty entrenched. But at the end of the day, it's still good to have something that doesn't require a bank, phone, computer, or anything else to facilitate a transaction.
You are probably remembering classes at elementary level. When you were older than 5 or 6 years old.I didn't learn basic maths with money. I seem to recall blocks being used.
Moving on, examples like I gave are typical questions. "Bob has 10 apples and wants to share them evenly between 5 people. How many apples does everybody get"
By the time we reached money-related maths questions yes I was dealing with 'virtual' money. My teacher never gave me money and said work out this mathematical equation using this money
Never said you were LYING. Calm down. Just that for any e-money there will be a paper trail, just like with checks. You've made it clear how much you hate checks, but your e-checks or virtual money always has a corresponding paper trail.No s**t Sherlock. Yes there'll be real paper, but the money will be transferred electronically. I am not going to buy a house using cash, nor am I going to just write out a cheque for it. Our deposit has already been paid - we did that via online banking. They gave the Sort Code, Account Number and Reference Number and we paid the money in. Done. Electronically.
So I made up the situation? Am I lying?
What do you expect me to say? Good for you that you didn't tip a strange man demanding 20 bucks at the airport? And what would you have done for a very helpful person at the airport, when they don't have an e-scanner? Or do you really expect all of them to have that tool strapped to their belt? Would that be like their personal cell phone or something the airport or airline gives them?I know he wasn't official, but he came up to me (travelling on my own) and offered to carry my bags and insisted on $20, which I did not pay.
Taxes are supposed to be tips same as earnings. The problem is people don't always honestly declare tips so they get estimated based on total sales. If we abolished cash tips and they were done electronically then they'd be taxed fairly.
So you think cash tips is a black market? How much would you like to add to your airfare, to make sure they're making a living wage without tips? How much would you pay for a meal in Manhattan or San Francisco to not have to leave a tip for their service?As for less than minimum wage workers, that shouldn't be legal. And almost without fail people being paid less than minimum wage are getting paid ... cash in hand. Again, eliminating the black market would be a good thing
I don't know about you, but paying for some services in advance of getting those services is not something I'm used to. If I had to pay in advance for plane service, plus beverage service, and baggage service.....I'd be pissed if anything went wrong. Ditto for restaurant service. I like paying for the meal, then paying for the service separately, and tipping accordingly. Because I'm a good tipper. I don't like being lumped in with poor tippers, when places assign a minimum tip.
In the US, tips are calculated (unless it's gone up) at 8% of the server's total sales for the month. When this law first came out, the place I worked with took out those taxes once a month, in the middle of the month, because there were times that some of us actually OWED more than our checks were. Hell, the lady was trying to make sure we had the ability to pay our rent and utilities! If she had taken it out of both checks, all of us would have been living on the streets!
Hmmm, here we used to get actual coins and bills (nothing larger than a $10) so we could learn to "count back change", something that has become a, sadly, lost art!By the time we reached money-related maths questions yes I was dealing with 'virtual' money. My teacher never gave me money and said work out this mathematical equation using this money
That's funny!No s**t Sherlock. Yes there'll be real paper, but the money will be transferred electronically. I am not going to buy a house using cash, nor am I going to just write out a cheque for it. Our deposit has already been paid - we did that via online banking. They gave the Sort Code, Account Number and Reference Number and we paid the money in. Done. Electronically.Mommymunchkin walked out of the Land and Title company with a real paper check in her hand! The lending bank and her bank both insisted on that!
Not really! Those tips are supposed to make the difference between the server's actual per hour wage and the minimum wage! When I last worked as a waitress, minimum wage was $5.00 per hour, and waitress minimum wage was $1.85 per hour! (It may be higher now, not sure.) Hella big difference, ain't there!Taxes are supposed to be tips same as earnings. The problem is people don't always honestly declare tips so they get estimated based on total sales. If we abolished cash tips and they were done electronically then they'd be taxed fairly.
I like to be able to decide how much to tip my server/bartender. If the service is superb, they get tipped that way. If the service is shitty, I will leave exactly 8%!As for less than minimum wage workers, that shouldn't be legal. And almost without fail people being paid less than minimum wage are getting paid ... cash in hand. Again, eliminating the black market would be a good thing
The lady I worked for when the stupid taxing of tips law came into effect, paid her servers very well. In fact, at a time minimum wage was $3.25, most of her servers made more than that!
If tips were moved to a cashless system, it would ensure quite a number of people would have to do without some of the daily necessities since many places would only pay them out on payday instead of daily. Do you know that those tips often bought food for my family, or diapers for those with small kids? Not everyone can live as well as you do. Some of us don't make a living wage, and without those tips would be fucked!That being said, if tips moved to a cashless system (or at least were better tracked - the current tracking systems are absurd), it would be much easier for the IRS or another regulatory body to ensure that employees are making at least minimum wage between tips and wages. Evasion is a huge issue here, but some guarantees of decent income combined with better tracking would probably close a lot of the loopholes people exploit.Many of the people I know in the service industry basically live on their tips, with their checks (small as they are) being used for the big stuff like rent/house payments, car payments and insurance, and utilities!
I don't have a problem with authority....I just don't like being told what to do!Remember, the toes you step on today may be attached to the ass you have to kiss tomorrow!RIP Fluffy! 01-07-09 I'm so sorry Fluffster! People who don't like cats were probably mice in an earlier life! My mind not only wanders, sometimes it leaves completely!The nice part about living in a small town: When you don't know what you're doing, someone else always does!
Atari bullshit refugee!!
Nope, minimum tips your employer is required to pay you is 8% of reported tip income. I think this is probably a measure against evasion - if you don't report your tips, your employer is on the hook for paying you up to 8% tip income. Thus, they'll enforce tax reporting. Regardless of this 8% rule, employees are required by law to report all of their tip income as earned income and pay normal income taxes on it.
edit: poorly written, see below.
(Emphasis added) Until I got married, I was earning effectively less than minimum wage due to my hours and the fact I'm a salaried 'worker'. I didn't exactly pull in the big bucks, but I still paid my taxes scrupulously. I understand that people have difficult economic situations, but that doesn't change the law. Federal income tax burdens are quite low for most people in low income jobs, especially if they have families or homes.If tips were moved to a cashless system, it would ensure quite a number of people would have to do without some of the daily necessities since many places would only pay them out on payday instead of daily. Do you know that those tips often bought food for my family, or diapers for those with small kids? Not everyone can live as well as you do. Some of us don't make a living wage, and without those tips would be fucked!
Last edited by wiggin; 08-30-2010 at 10:03 PM.
You tell 'em sister!
While I'd love it if service workers earned a living wage, many don't. I've talked with my kid about this many times. Why don't they share tips and all have the same hourly wage? He's adamant that the kitchen staff is not like the wait staff. The kitchen staff is always busy, preparing food or cleaning up, while the wait staff is often just hanging around waiting for the next customer. He thinks the kitchen staff should have a higher wage and any tips are cream on top. He doesn't expect the wait staff to share their tips with him. I think I agree with that, because I've had great food but poor service, and other way around. When the food is excellent I make a point to ask for the chef, he comes to the table and we ooh and aww. Then we try and give him some cash if it's not too uncomfortable, depends on the size of the place. But in the end, the kitchen staff and wait staff are two different entities. They should be tipped accordingly.
wiggin, you sound like a lousy tipper. I hope you don't continue to think of TAX LAW when you tip your chefs or servers. Jeeze.
People like you make it a livable situation for tipped workers!
Then why, on pay stubs etc, does it show where 8% of your total sales is being counted as tips and being taxed? No where I have ever worked did it any differently! As far as I know, that's the way it is set up for every place, since the bullshit tax is a federal fucking law! Since I was one of those people who didn't want the IRS to get one penny more than they should, I kept track of my total sales (before sales tax added on) and checked that the total was correct...each and every check it was stolen out of! By it's very definition, a tip is a gift! Gifts should NOT count as income, PERIOD!
Maybe that burden seems low to you, but to someone that it might make a difference whether the kid has milk or food this week, it's damned high! Or maybe it means being able to buy health insurance, or a decent car. It adds up over time, and can amount to a hell of a lot of money to someone making less than $20,000 per year! Just to have it taken out of the checks, even if you get it back at the end of the year.(Emphasis added) Until I got married, I was earning effectively less than minimum wage due to my hours and the fact I'm a salaried 'worker'. I didn't exactly pull in the big bucks, but I still paid my taxes scrupulously. I understand that people have difficult economic situations, but that doesn't change the law. Federal income tax burdens are quite low for most people in low income jobs, especially if they have families or homes.
I don't have a problem with authority....I just don't like being told what to do!Remember, the toes you step on today may be attached to the ass you have to kiss tomorrow!RIP Fluffy! 01-07-09 I'm so sorry Fluffster! People who don't like cats were probably mice in an earlier life! My mind not only wanders, sometimes it leaves completely!The nice part about living in a small town: When you don't know what you're doing, someone else always does!
Atari bullshit refugee!!
Maybe having kids isn't such a hot idea when you're making less than minimum wage
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
For crying out loud, I don't know what wiggin is going on about. Really. If you get great service, you tip the server generously. If you get a great meal, you tip the chef generously. If that means tipping as much as the total meal then so be it. We're not obligated, but when it's due it's bloody well due. Part of the fun of that kind of meal is the whole experience, talking to the chef, talking to the server, telling them how much the experience mattered. They get a look in their eye like wow, thanks, that's why we do this, and it's great you like what we do!
That wasn't really necessary, was it Nessie?Maybe having kids isn't such a hot idea when you're making less than minimum wage
Wiggin isn't discussing whether he should tip his server or not. He's saying that a server is legally obligated to report all their tips. This is true, and has been for at least 16 years now. What Wiggin is trying to point out iis that if a server's tips are ridiculously low, the employer is also legally obligated to bring you up to x amount.
And anyone who is making less than 8% of their total sales is a really shitty server and should probably be unemployed.
We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.
I didn't say anything about how much I tip and it's none of your damned business (though your assumption is in fact incorrect). Ad hominem attacks don't really have a place here.
I think I was unclear with my previous phrasing - yes, it's 8% of sales (sorta) from which they calculate minimum tips. The amount an individual employee has to pay to the feds is their tax liability from their total tip income, whether it's 8% or 25%. It's possible things are different since when you were working in such an industry, but that's the way it works now.
Tips are not gifts, they are a compensation for a service.
If too much money is being withheld, you can increase the number of your exemptions on your W-4 (and associated forms). On other levels, I understand that money is scarce for a restaurant worker, which is why most of them aren't doing it as a career (or trying to singlehandedly support a family on it).Maybe that burden seems low to you, but to someone that it might make a difference whether the kid has milk or food this week, it's damned high! Or maybe it means being able to buy health insurance, or a decent car. It adds up over time, and can amount to a hell of a lot of money to someone making less than $20,000 per year! Just to have it taken out of the checks, even if you get it back at the end of the year.
When did I say people shouldn't tip? I just said that waiters/etc. should pay taxes on their tips, in accordance with US law.
Say what you want, you're keeping score wiggin. It's not ad hominem to copy your own statements.
Maybe not, but then where would your next generation of minimum wage workers come from?Maybe having kids isn't such a hot idea when you're making less than minimum wage
Since I don't know anyone who makes less than 8% of total sales, I doubt very many employers are having to pay out.
Tip
–noun 1. a small present of money given directly to someone for performing a service or menial task; gratuity: He gave the waiter a dollar as a tip.
Present
–noun
16. a thing presented as a gift;
More people on welfare is a great solution!And anyone who is making less than 8% of their total sales is a really shitty server and should probably be unemployed.
I don't have a problem with authority....I just don't like being told what to do!Remember, the toes you step on today may be attached to the ass you have to kiss tomorrow!RIP Fluffy! 01-07-09 I'm so sorry Fluffster! People who don't like cats were probably mice in an earlier life! My mind not only wanders, sometimes it leaves completely!The nice part about living in a small town: When you don't know what you're doing, someone else always does!
Atari bullshit refugee!!
Well duh, lolli. NO ONE has suggested that servers should not or do not pay their due taxes. I might agree with you about canning a server who can't make at least 8% of tips on sales, if I didn't also know there are plenty of really shitty food places. Quite a lot of tippers think ambiance=food=service, and it's not right to "punish" a server who is excellent in serving crappy food. They don't have any power over the kitchen, and vice versa.
Yes, Munchkin said that all they have to pay taxes based on total sales. That is what this entire discussion is about.
We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.
Didn't you explode on Minx after his incomprehensible lack of response to you just today?
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Buh... what?Say what you want, you're keeping score wiggin. It's not ad hominem to copy your own statements.
May I quote what I first responded to:
So she said she's been out of food services for a while, and you're harping on that? How long has it been since you were a server, lolli? My guess is the taxes have changed, but the concept of tipping has not.
I was thinking about a great restaurant in Philly we went to last February, around Valentine's Day. Place called Marsha Brown's. Long story short, the cocktail server spilled a whole tray of martinis and mojitos down my kids back. One of those flukes. But they took my son to the men's room, gave him a new shirt, washed/dried/ironed his shirt while we enjoyed a lovely meal, the manager practically fell all over us.
We just kept saying it's okay, don't worry, it's FINE. Our meals were great, the evening was great, the wait staff was great. At dessert time they called the boy back to the kitchen to get his cleaned shirt, they fawned all over him and he lapped it up. We gave a great tip for the food and the service, even with its fuck ups. It's still a nice memory.
Maybe, but I don't think I exploded. I hope I don't explode on anyone. But if we're going into cross-threads or cross-posting then what the hell?
GO
TO
BED
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Thanks nessie but I'm okay. It's been a strange day but that's okay too.
From what I remember...
A server is required to pay income tax on 8% of his or her total sales for the month.
If that has changed, then I am damned glad not to be in the service industry any more! Jesus people, what the fuck part of minimum wage for a server is consistently MUCH lower than minimum wage for any other job! Tips are supposed to make that difference up, but don't always! To tax someone on money they may not have gotten is wrong on so many levels I don't even want to go there! A tip is a gift! A gift is NOT income unless it's over a certain amount in the thousands of dollars! A person can give you many small gifts under that amount at any time, but if they give you a gift in that amount or more, it's taxed as a gift tax. That tax scale is different than the income tax scale! So, unless you are getting HUGE tips (in which case you are probably a high-dollar call girl) from one person or table, it should NOT count as income!
I don't have a problem with authority....I just don't like being told what to do!Remember, the toes you step on today may be attached to the ass you have to kiss tomorrow!RIP Fluffy! 01-07-09 I'm so sorry Fluffster! People who don't like cats were probably mice in an earlier life! My mind not only wanders, sometimes it leaves completely!The nice part about living in a small town: When you don't know what you're doing, someone else always does!
Atari bullshit refugee!!
I don't think all readers understand the US minimum wage structure, or how it varies by state. My son started out at about $6/hour with no tips. His wait staff peers started out at about $3/hour plus tips. None of these kids evaded taxes, but I wouldn't blame them if the did. You try serving tables for $3/hour plus tips, and see how you fill out tax forms.
After 3 years my son was making just over $9/hour. He was also acting as a manager during his shift. It wasn't fun or easy for an 18 year old kid, but it was even harder for the wait staff. You try waiting tables for $3/hour, and fill out Line 9 on the IRS form, or whatever wiggin says it is.....for a $20 dollar meal that might mean five bucks in tip, on a good day. Some folks only tip 10% no matter what. Some days there are only a couple of patrons and very little tips.
Are you sure you want to argue about taxes for service workers?
Munchkin - It's nice you believe that, but you're wrong:
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/...=98401,00.html
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote