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Thread: Smoking is a form of child abuse

  1. #1

    Default Smoking is a form of child abuse

    Was considering creating this thread even before the recent flare-up on the other thread.

    Smoking while pregnant or smoking in the company of pregnant women/children is a bizarrely allowed form of child abuse in my opinion. We have the dangers of doing so printed on a box of cigarettes but then say to people "you've been warned it'll damage children, but feel free to do whatever you want with that info".

    Oddly enough this discussion I had in real life was sparked by Facebook. Somebody who regularly chain smokes had a child and constantly had photo's going up while heavily pregnant which showed her with a cigarette in her hand; even at her bridal shower she was smoking. Then the child was born and continued to smoke. Now the child is in a serious medical condition suffering from respiratory problems!

    Only now has the mother put on a Facebook Status of "I blame myself". Guess what, you should! . Although every comment she's had on that has been one of "don't blame yourself, its not your fault". Yes it is! It bloody well is her fault. This child wouldn't be sick had she not abused her her child's body through the mother's tobacco having known what the consequences were.

    In my opinion smoking while pregnant or in front of children is a serious form of child abuse. If that child was now suffering because her mother had neglected her due to a crack addiction then the consequences (to the mother) and people's reaction would be different. Well the mother neglected her due to a tobacco addiction and has caused this poor child to suffer due to her own selfish, evil addiction.

    Nobody who smokes today, not a single person, does so without knowing the consequences. Nobody who becomes pregnant today does so without knowing the risks that smoking can cause to the baby. Nobody who smokes in front of others, especially children but not just them does so blind. The danger is known and to do so anyway is neglect, it is abuse. And anyone who does so is not fit to be a parent.

  2. #2
    Wow. I wonder what you'd say to the millions of people who lived during the Earlier Times. They must have all been "accidental" abusers, because they just didn't know any better. Amazing anyone lived, managed to have children, and those children managed to have other children. Back in the Earlier Times when pretty much everyone smoked.

    But you keep up with that, if it makes you feel better. Longevity has increased a few years since the Earlier Times. Get rid of smoking and smokers and the whole world will be a happy peaceful place, and everyone will breathe pure air, and live to be 110 years old. Because you know, it's all about being smoke-free.


  3. #3
    I'm pretty sure my mother smoked while pregnant with me (she sort of denies it) and she definitely smoked around me until I was about 12. She did with all the kids. She knew better, but its an addiction. I think to do that today is negligent to point of heinous. No offense Ziggy, but I think smoking is generally pretty heinous and the drug ought to be much more highly regulated than it is.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Wow. I wonder what you'd say to the millions of people who lived during the Earlier Times. They must have all been "accidental" abusers, because they just didn't know any better.
    Yes they were. At least they "didn't know better", anyone nowadays does and has no excuse. None! Other than "I'm a stupid idiot who got addicted to a drug due to peer pressure". Unless you can name one I haven't thought of?
    Amazing anyone lived, managed to have children, and those children managed to have other children. Back in the Earlier Times when pretty much everyone smoked.
    Not really, the whole definition of risk is precisely that.
    But you keep up with that, if it makes you feel better. Longevity has increased a few years since the Earlier Times. Get rid of smoking and smokers and the whole world will be a happy peaceful place, and everyone will breathe pure air, and live to be 110 years old. Because you know, it's all about being smoke-free.
    Getting rid of smokers isn't the be-all-and-end-all any more than getting rid of any other form of abuser like rapists or murders or anyone else is the be-all and end-all. Doesn't mean we shouldn't discourage or criminalise raping others/murdering others/smoking in front of others etc

    Funnily enough a father having sex with his 7 year old daughter is illegal, do you disagree with that law? Why should the father be allowed to smoke in front of his 7 year old daughter on the grounds that it "doesn't solve all life's problems". Or do you think a father should be allowed to have sex with his 7 year old daughter?

  5. #5
    She probably had a glass of wine or two, or maybe some beers, even a martini! Even while pregnant with you, and your siblings. Maybe Rand's mom did too! Did these women also use butter in cooking and eat cholesterol-filled eggs? Did they consume sugars and not jog 5k per day? I bet they drove you around without a car seat, too. And you played sports without a helmet. OMG Call the child abuse police! How the hell are either of you alive today, with such horrible mothers?


  6. #6
    So raping children is OK, I understand you Gee.

  7. #7
    You're berserk Rand, if you try to conflate smoking with rapists, murderers, or fathers fucking their daughters.

  8. #8
    What's the difference?

  9. #9
    I'm inclined to agree with you, but I can't think of many good ways to handle the problem by defining it as abuse--ie. ways that won't risk the child's welfare eg. through worsening the mother's economic situation or through separating the child from the mother at an early age or whatever.

    I wonder how these things happen, how (or if) they're missed by healthcare professionals during the pregnancy. Do they not ask? Maybe they should screen. Do they not manage to convey the severity of the problems? Maybe they need to find ways to do so. Don't the mothers listen? If not, then why not? As you say, everyone should "know", but I don't think very many people want to abuse their own babies that way so there must be some other reason for such gross neglect. Are the mothers suffering from some sort of undiagnosed disorder like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder or something? Hmm.

    In sum, I agree that smoking while pregnant is negligent at the least and can certainly constitute abuse, but I don't know how to fix the problems.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  10. #10
    I'd like to clarify that I emphatically disagree with this bullshit about equating smoking around children with raping them.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    What's the difference?
    You're crazy. Berserk. Loco. If you lump second hand smoke in with fathers fucking daughters, rapists and murderers, nothing I can say will make much difference.

  12. #12
    Meh, I don't know what to say.

    I think the mother's rights should supersede those of the unhatched hatchling, but I'd also question why someone is having a baby they want to poison (with smoking, boozing, drugs, whatever).

    I'm just not sure I think making it a legal issue is the way to go.
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  13. #13
    Re. "the difference", apart from the obvious physical differences and the trauma aspect one might consider the issue of intent, eg. smoking during pregnancy may be grossly negligent and irresponsible while rape of your own children probably doesn't count as "negligence".

    And it's retarded to try and lump the two together, not least because it prevents us from even thinking about reasonable solutions to the problem.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    You're crazy. Berserk. Loco. If you lump second hand smoke in with fathers fucking daughters, rapists and murderers, nothing I can say will make much difference.


    I'm not saying its exactly the same, I'm saying people are either-way making a nasty, selfish, wicked and deliberate choice to harm a child for their own pleasure. Do you disagree with any of those words?

  15. #15
    Maybe they're only buying the boxes that say "smoking reduces your sperm-count".
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  16. #16
    If there's anyone today who doesn't know smoking while pregnant harms the child they're even stupider than I thought. Is there anyone here in this thread who was ignorant of that fact?

  17. #17
    It's taught in elementary schools here - probably starting in kindergarten.

    They don't get sex ed (pardon me, human growth and development) until 5th grade, but they learn that smoking hurts unborn babies and that booze is bad much sooner.
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    If there's anyone today who doesn't know smoking while pregnant harms the child they're even stupider than I thought. Is there anyone here in this thread who was ignorant of that fact?
    I think that you should be smart enough to know that regular people frequently make poor choices even though they should reasonably be expected to "know" better. It's why even smart people smoke, drink, eat crappy food, neglect exercise, don't plan ahead for the future, have bad relationships, neglect to take their meds properly, and ride motorcycles.

    If you want to focus exclusively on stupidity and abuse then I don't think you'll make much headway on solving the problem, although I suppose you might feel better. I don't think anyone else needs to take responsibility for your feel-goods.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    I'm pretty sure my mother smoked while pregnant with me (she sort of denies it) and she definitely smoked around me until I was about 12. She did with all the kids. She knew better, but its an addiction. I think to do that today is negligent to point of heinous. No offense Ziggy, but I think smoking is generally pretty heinous and the drug ought to be much more highly regulated than it is.
    Same here. She sort of denies it, but I know she was trying to quit for 15 years, so there's no way she quit for the 9 months she was pregnant. Impossible.

    Knowledge = responsibility. People have known since the 40s that tobacco was the single worst health choice one could make. Parents who ignored this were just turning a blind eye to an inconvenient truth.

    Doing so these days is tantamount to child abuse. Perhaps not rape, but certainly hitting.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    I think that you should be smart enough to know that regular people frequently make poor choices even though they should reasonably be expected to "know" better. It's why even smart people smoke, drink, eat crappy food, neglect exercise, don't plan ahead for the future, have bad relationships, neglect to take their meds properly, and ride motorcycles.

    If you want to focus exclusively on stupidity and abuse then I don't think you'll make much headway on solving the problem, although I suppose you might feel better. I don't think anyone else needs to take responsibility for your feel-goods.
    People regularly take poor decisions for themselves, but neglecting children is regarding as different. We do have social services etc responsible for ensuring children don't get neglected, though smoking is not currently covered in their remit.

  21. #21
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    She probably had a glass of wine or two, or maybe some beers, even a martini! Even while pregnant with you, and your siblings. Maybe Rand's mom did too! Did these women also use butter in cooking and eat cholesterol-filled eggs? Did they consume sugars and not jog 5k per day? I bet they drove you around without a car seat, too. And you played sports without a helmet. OMG Call the child abuse police! How the hell are either of you alive today, with such horrible mothers?

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    You're berserk Rand, if you try to conflate smoking with rapists, murderers, or fathers fucking their daughters.
    So, let me see: You object to one kind of (admittedly extreme) conflation, while you yourself commit the same deed?

    Hypocrisy much?
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  22. #22
    Smoking while pregnant or smoking in the company of pregnant women/children is a bizarrely allowed form of child abuse in my opinion.
    Of course it is.
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by ']['ear View Post
    Same here. She sort of denies it, but I know she was trying to quit for 15 years, so there's no way she quit for the 9 months she was pregnant. Impossible.
    Mine claimed she was too sick with nausea to smoke. Really? For nine months? What about the ride home in the car from the hospital and the 12 years after that? I'm not sure there was the level of concern, awareness, etc in the late '60s that we have today, so I don't think its necessarily fair to judge older parents the way we would new parents today. Even so, she obviously feels a bit of shame or she'd be just like "yeah, I smoked. Lots of moms did. We really didn't think it was a big deal then" and be done with it.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    We do have social services etc responsible for ensuring children don't get neglected, though smoking is not currently covered in their remit.
    Nanny state.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  25. #25
    I don't even know what to say here! Rand, you are equating a pollutant with locking the kid(s) in a fucking closet and not feeding them! That is neglect and abuse! Smoking, while it may be a filthy habit, is nothing like that!

    Did I smoke when I was pregnant with The Kid? Yes! I cut down to less than 1/2 pack a day during my pregnancy, but I still smoked. In fact, I had a smoking room in the hospital after he was born! None of this bullshit about having to go out, get in the car and drive 1/2 mile from the hospital, leaving the baby alone in the room, (neglect, IMO) to have a few puffs of a legal substance! Have I smoked around him his entire lifetime? Yes! Does he have any health problems associated with my smoking? NO!

    Herein lies a good question for you, Rand. My son is allergic to poultry products. Did I eat a lot of chicken and turkey while I was pregnant? Yes! Did I possibly cause this allergy? According to the allergist...it's entirely possible! Is that a form of child abuse? Sure, I could have eaten NOTHING, making sure he wasn't allergic to anything later in life, I guess.
    I don't have a problem with authority....I just don't like being told what to do!Remember, the toes you step on today may be attached to the ass you have to kiss tomorrow!RIP Fluffy! 01-07-09 I'm so sorry Fluffster! People who don't like cats were probably mice in an earlier life! My mind not only wanders, sometimes it leaves completely!The nice part about living in a small town: When you don't know what you're doing, someone else always does!
    Atari bullshit refugee!!

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by oldmunchkin View Post
    I don't even know what to say here! Rand, you are equating a pollutant with locking the kid(s) in a fucking closet and not feeding them! That is neglect and abuse! Smoking, while it may be a filthy habit, is nothing like that!
    What about leaving a child in a dirty room with used, dirty needles? That's very comparable to smoking.
    Did I smoke when I was pregnant with The Kid? Yes! I cut down to less than 1/2 pack a day during my pregnancy, but I still smoked. In fact, I had a smoking room in the hospital after he was born! None of this bullshit about having to go out, get in the car and drive 1/2 mile from the hospital, leaving the baby alone in the room, (neglect, IMO) to have a few puffs of a legal substance! Have I smoked around him his entire lifetime? Yes! NO!
    So all your child's life you have knowingly and deliberately poisoned your child? I think its a shame your addiction has caused you to be a bad parent.

  27. #27


    These are quite common during evening TV

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    What about leaving a child in a dirty room with used, dirty needles? That's very comparable to smoking.
    Uhm, not anywhere close to the same! A dirty needle can/does contain trace amounts of whatever drug what injected with it, along with the possibility of AIDS or other blood borne diseases. There is a damned good reason children in a situation like this are taken into state care! I have NEVER seen a child taken away from it's parents because of smoking (legal substances) alone! Yes, there are serious drug users who have been known to torture their child(ren) by burning them with lit cigarettes/cigars, but that is more comparable to the dirty needle scenerio than smoking alone! Smoking causes a whole hell of a lot less harm than other...REAL...forms of child abuse.

    So all your child's life you have knowingly and deliberately poisoned your child? I think its a shame your addiction has caused you to be a bad parent.
    Uhm, no...all his life I have smoked! Big, huge difference! If I had given him cyanide or antifreeze every day, that is deliberately poisoning him. Smoking didn't harm him! He is, and has been all his life, exposed to much worse pollutants than a bit of smoke! We lived on main street, with the trucks and cars and such all day and night, plus the railroad is horrible here. There is always a fine layer of black dust on everything. I wipe my window sill daily, and by evening it's covered in black shit again! I'm betting that's worse for any of our lungs than a bit of smoke!

    How dare you judge what kind of parent I am? How fucking arrogant do you really think you need to be in your obsession for something so small as smoking? Maybe you, in all your ignorance, think you could have done a better job as a single parent working for minimum wage all his life? Hell, you crossed my tolerance level with that asinine comment! If you dare to judge me, try walking a mile in my shoes! I was your age or maybe a bit younger when he was born! He is a perfectly normal, healthy 22 year old young man!
    I don't have a problem with authority....I just don't like being told what to do!Remember, the toes you step on today may be attached to the ass you have to kiss tomorrow!RIP Fluffy! 01-07-09 I'm so sorry Fluffster! People who don't like cats were probably mice in an earlier life! My mind not only wanders, sometimes it leaves completely!The nice part about living in a small town: When you don't know what you're doing, someone else always does!
    Atari bullshit refugee!!

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Mine claimed she was too sick with nausea to smoke.
    Mine did quit and managed to stay off them for a couple of years. She started up again about two years after my sister was born though.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  30. #30
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldmunchkin View Post
    How dare you judge what kind of parent I am? How fucking arrogant do you really think you need to be in your obsession for something so small as smoking? Maybe you, in all your ignorance, think you could have done a better job as a single parent working for minimum wage all his life? Hell, you crossed my tolerance level with that asinine comment! If you dare to judge me, try walking a mile in my shoes! I was your age or maybe a bit younger when he was born! He is a perfectly normal, healthy 22 year old young man!
    "Small"? Poisoning your child is a "small" thing? Shall I once again enumerate the multitude of poisons you inhale when you smoke? Which are then found in your bloodstream, attacking your child when it is most susceptible to it, namely in the womb?

    Hell, the main ingredient (nicotine) is a neurotoxin - this alone should tell you why it is better to stop smoking during pregnancy. I mean, the stuff is even used as an insecticide...

    ... and before GGT jumps in with another strawman, please show me where butter is a neurotoxin.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

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