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Thread: On conservatives and morality

  1. #1

    Default On conservatives and morality

    The framework of many conservatives seems patently unhinged from reality. Everything in society is conceptualized as punishments and rewards, and individual achievement/success. The lack of achievement is perceived as a lack of responsibility and capability; laziness. Only when hit in the face with a blunt object such as physical handicaps and blatant, out-spoken discrimination are they willing to concede that outside forces factored into the failure/lack of that person's success.

    This thinking muddles many issues, such as how discrimination is perceived. Conservative thought can comprehend overt racism, because it can be resolved into a lack of responsibility on the part of the discriminator; if you're good and just and want to make money, you don't call a nigger a nigger. What's incomprehensible, largely, for this mindset is the covert discrimination. The idea that broad social forces can have any impact on a person's life is anathema to the myth of individual achievement.

    It's a convenient mode of thought, that the good are rewarded and the bad punished automatically. But it's unrealistic.

    The myth of individual achievement can be summed up in the thought that if one is moral and self-disciplined, one succeeds in life. Lack of success (which is often measured in material terms such as monetary wealth and a handsome wife) is caused by failures of not only discipline but morality itself; the lazy bum is stuck in poverty because they had lax morals.

    Things which can only be understood in aggregate or, Heavens forbid, more complex scientific reasoning than 'correlation = causation', tend to fly right in the face of this weltanschauung. The idea that people can achieve high social status through, say, nepotism or being born white (and male) is inconvenient, and has to be discarded.

    This framework makes conversation tiresome. The fanatic capitalist delights in pointing out the abundance of alcohol and physical comfort available to a non-productive, broken member of society precisely because of the punishment/reward apparatus. The non-productive do not deserve physical comfort or alcohol, indeed they should be punished, because by being non-productive and broken they have demonstrated their lack of morality and worth as a human being! Trying to access broad concepts such as affirmative action becomes an exercise in calculus, because instead of even attempting to view the situation as a whole, the conservative mind-set demands to know why people are punished without any lack of moral failure. The idea that minorities struggle against various implicit discriminatory forces is immaterial to the discussion, because unjust punishments are doled out.

    What's worrisome about this is the self-fulfilling prophecy it promotes. The poor minorities are poor because they're immoral! So why would I even want to employ a non-diligent, immoral person? Compounded with the fact that conservative thought is often coupled with religious, if not out-right evangelical, modes of thought, these people aggregate the very type of covert discrimination and intolerance their world-view demands to ignore.

    Similarly, public services are deemed largely unnecessary, because morally right and responsible people can afford to buy cars and gasoline, put their children into private schools (where only the strength of their resolve and morals dictate success or failure), buy health-care from the best doctors, and security from private security contractors and insurance companies. And if one cannot, then one simply needs to work harder, pray harder, and not lay about like so much muck. And so it goes.

    It is immediately clear how this kind of thinking is not only dangerous, but disastrous when these people are allowed to engineer societies. The rift between the social 'classes' (not to evoke Marx) grows deeper and wider as the immoral must be perpetually punished for their failure to lift themselves up, by their boot-straps if not through God, work and charity. Taxes are an unfair punishment, not a purchase.

    I suspect this thinking also fuels some of the 'lol gummint' attitude many conservatives have. Ostensibly the heads of state and people governing the nation should be the most moral, the most diligent, the most ardent workers, since they're at the top of society. But, of course, politicians are but people too. And so government is ineffectual and bad, because it rewards lazy, corrupt good-for-nothings, instead of promoting selfless, God-fearing busy-bees. In particular when contrasted with CEOs, whose moral failures are rarely visible, and thus they make for good poster-boys for the myth of individual achievement. (Coincidentally, the CEOs must also be more bright than Nobel laureates, because they chose the path to greater material wealth. Never mind that the covert forces and nepotism are what promote so many heads of businesses to begin with.)

    The whole back and forth with morality being rewarded with material wealth and associating material wealth with morality is an interesting if very confusing mire. It's also one of the lynch-pins in the disconnect many Evangelicals exhibit between the morals they claim to uphold and how they actually want to run society.

    These deep, underlying wholly alternative modes of thought make dialogue with conservatives endless mine-fields, where chances of finding common ground and understanding are slim. Things must be reduced into the calculus of the punishment/reward dichotomy, endlessly, and often this gets further tangled with incentive/disincentive thinking, whereupon magical thinking is blended with reality, and the impossibility of unwinding that mess with reasoning terminates the conversation.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  2. #2
    Bucking for another front page?
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Bucking for another front page?
    If you don't have anything to contribute...
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  4. #4
    I have a couple of objections/comments.

    First, what you describe are not innate features of conservatism per se, but rather are features of conservatism as it currently manifests in the US.

    Second, obviously many US conservatives do not subscribe to the ugly traits you describe.

    Third, I'm concerned that you are starting to view the world through a "US lens," acquired here. Granted, this forum is very US-centric. But is it healthy to start making blanket generalizations about conservatism and liberalism based mostly on the dysfunction of the US system, and primarily by its politicians striving for power, and funding primarily by moneyed interests trying to pervert the system to favor their own priorities, usually financial?

    Fourth, I think that all "groups" of any kind have blind spots and flaws. Thus, I'm confident one could make a similar complaint about liberals, targeting different stereotypes belonging to that group. It's a lot harder, because there are fewer liberals in the US than conservatives. That is, in relationship to the absolute political scale, not the sliding one applied in the US, where a relatively pro-business politician like Obama can be painted as a dirty socialist, and where true leftists are practically non-existent.

  5. #5
    I was going to put an escape clause into parenthesis about how this is mostly about GOP-voting geese, but decided against that since the reward-punishment-apparatus isn't restricted to US conservatives alone.

    And of course the left wing has its own myopias; the right-wing stereotypes come from somewhere. But this was a thought that recently, hm, opened itself to me and helped me understand why the fuck I can't comprehend how geese think.

    The lens is convenient because the audience here is US-centric too; discussing the minutiae of Finnish culture would be about as interesting to you as Loki going on about Slavic hell-holes. Or whatever the Hell he reads up on for family's sake.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  6. #6
    Sheep might be more appropriate. They are mostly sheep, with only a few shepherds with lots of power.

  7. #7
    That's been taken by the libertarians to describe everyone without a tin foil hat and a libertarian agenda.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  8. #8
    Yes, well this is non-partisan sheep. Most voters, right or left, are sheep without substantial critical thinking skills. hey believe the emails they get saying X, Y or Z, and they watch some TV spin doctors feed them what they want to hear to validate their already-formed opinions.

    As for lolbertards, you could choke on the smug. Worse than a Hollywood star in a prius.

  9. #9
    You have to separate rhetoric from specific policy positions. A vast majority of the Tea Partyers (and Republican politicians who back them) do not support making cuts on a vast majority of the biggest government programs. There was just an article in the NY Times (I believe), which showed that even if discretionary spending was returned to Reagan's levels and then cut another 20%, spending would only decrease by $100 billion a year. This is because these people are unwilling to make cuts in mandatory spending programs, such as Social Security and Medicare. The only people who would support changes in the latter are the likes of Ron Paul/Rand Paul, and they have virtually no popular support.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  10. #10
    The myth of individual achievement can be summed up in the thought that if one is moral and self-disciplined, one succeeds in life. Lack of success (which is often measured in material terms such as monetary wealth and a handsome wife) is caused by failures of not only discipline but morality itself; the lazy bum is stuck in poverty because they had lax morals.
    Not the case. There are plenty of examples of immoral people who have prospered. Morality does not make one wealthy, it makes one moral.

    Hard work, ambition and discipline will make one wealthy. Someone who is not a "success" however we define it may or may not be due to moral failing. However there is a HUGE correlation between laziness and failing to "succeed." This isn't rocket science. I'm sure everyone has many personal examples of lazy folks who just don't want to work. Hell half of my friends from high school I still keep in contact with still live with their moms! Now here I am with a modest amount in my 401k, 4 years of a job history in a career field with room for advancement. Am I brighter then my friends? Well not appreciatively so in the strategy games we played for fun I lost as often as I won. So what is the difference? Laziness and their parents enabling them.

    The non-productive do not deserve physical comfort or alcohol, indeed they should be punished, because by being non-productive and broken they have demonstrated their lack of morality and worth as a human being!
    Don't be silly. No one is advocating the state "punish" people who are "non-productive." Simply not enabling them though would be a lofty goal. I'm not opposed to social safety nets for the short term. I am opposed to cradle to grave welfare.

    And so government is ineffectual and bad, because it rewards lazy, corrupt good-for-nothings, instead of promoting selfless, God-fearing busy-bees.
    I get the feeling from your rant here that you dislike the idea of hard work? Do you find something wrong with relentless effort to improve? Its like the liberal unions who get upset when someone is working much harder/better/faster then their peers. That guys is rocking the boat and making the rest of us look bad!

    The whole back and forth with morality being rewarded with material wealth and associating material wealth with morality is an interesting if very confusing mire. It's also one of the lynch-pins in the disconnect many Evangelicals exhibit between the morals they claim to uphold and how they actually want to run society.
    Again very few people only moral people become wealthy. There is immense empirical evidence that shows a lot of scum bags get rich. That being said people who do become wealthy tend to have certain similar traits. One of them is not being afraid of hard work.

    Things must be reduced into the calculus of the punishment/reward dichotomy, endlessly, and often this gets further tangled with incentive/disincentive thinking, whereupon magical thinking is blended with reality, and the impossibility of unwinding that mess with reasoning terminates the conversation.
    Incentives is the basis for making the world tick. If you want more of something you subsidize it, if you want less of something you penalize it. Now real life has a hundred added variables but to discount incentives as the ultimate reason for doing anything is silly.

  11. #11
    You responded to the post criticizing a way of thinking with arguments stemming from that way of thinking. Well done.

    No, I don't have a problem with hard work, and you're either projecting or doing your usual conflating "everyone who disagrees with me on anything is a liberal and all liberals are useless hippies" which is endemic to the conservative mind-set. The whole harglebargle hard work laziness is main cause of human woes is precisely the guilt-trippy, punishment/reward thinking I was discussing.

    Not that I expected you to have enough powers of introspection to view your lenses from an outside perspective.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Things which can only be understood in aggregate or, Heavens forbid, more complex scientific reasoning than 'correlation = causation', tend to fly right in the face of this weltanschauung. The idea that people can achieve high social status through, say, nepotism or being born white (and male) is inconvenient, and has to be discarded.
    Perhaps they're merely looking at a different set of correlates? Hard work and ambition are not sufficient conditions for "success", but they're traits which are closer to necessary conditions than pretty much anything else you might find. Success is strongly correlated with them.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  13. #13
    No, I don't have a problem with hard work, and you're either projecting or doing your usual conflating "everyone who disagrees with me on anything is a liberal and all liberals are useless hippies" which is endemic to the conservative mind-set.
    I felt there was a deliberate negative connotation with the line "instead of promoting selfless, God-fearing busy-bees." Might be reading it wrong since I don't know you but from the tone of your posts that is what came across.

    The whole harglebargle hard work laziness is main cause of human woes is precisely the guilt-trippy, punishment/reward thinking I was discussing.
    So if someone is lazy are they more or less likely to fail at life? Are you arguing that hard work and laziness are not strongly correlated to success and failure?

  14. #14
    Actually, success is arguably more correlated with luck than hard work. There are two relevant aphorisms in science: "serendipity favors the prepared mind," and "I'd rather be lucky than smart."

    Once again, I recommend "Outliers" as a read if one is interested in the antecedents of success. Hard work and talent are both necessary, but not sufficient. Luck is also necessary, but unlike the others it is often enough sufficient.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by ']['ear View Post
    Actually, success is arguably more correlated with luck than hard work. There are two relevant aphorisms in science: "serendipity favors the prepared mind," and "I'd rather be lucky than smart."

    Once again, I recommend "Outliers" as a read if one is interested in the antecedents of success. Hard work and talent are both necessary, but not sufficient. Luck is also necessary, but unlike the others it is often enough sufficient.
    Luck in these discussions has always seemed to me like something of a proxy for a multitude of unrelated factors which would be prohibitive to break down and try to understand. A shorthand for "it's too much work to actually figure out why this happened."
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  16. #16
    Sure. Consider what I might be professionally if I'd not gotten CFIDS at 30 and kidney failure at 40. On the flip side, consider if I'd been born in a family with less interest in education, or in a locale with worse schools. Or how would I have been athletically if I weren't 6'1" and really fast? You can improve vertical leap and sprint speed through training, but can't really teach either of those.

    It really blows me away when somebody successful has a huge ego. Sure, they probably worked hard to get where they are, but do they know how many things went RIGHT, most of them never even recognized, to get them where they are?

    The entertainment biz is very emblematic of this. How many Hollywood stars worked their butts off to get so rich. Look at, say, Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt. Now, I have mild respect for their talents. But most of their success is because they were born beautiful. It's why I get so mad at guys like Val Kilmer: you were born beautiful! All you need to do to guarantee an income of millions per years is to spend a couple of hours per day in the gym! How dare you eat and drink that away when so many would gladly work their butts off to take your place?

    So I don't scorn those who never achieved. I only scorn those who piss it away. Even then, who am I to say that weren't born with mental health issues, or experienced evil things and a crappy family when young? Maybe Val Kilmer was raped by his minister as a child, and he drinks away the demons.

    No room for this kind of thought in Lewk's cosmology.

  17. #17
    I like Nessie's essays. Though I agree with Tear that it's important to avoid the US focus. Which is hard when there are so many fat, noisy Amerikans in the room. So I'll try to speak at a top-level issue.

    In general, Nessie, I think you may be hyperbolizing or projecting morality. Or at least taking the extreme talking points as the foundation of "conservative" orthodoxy. To pull a Rand, I would prefer to refer to "them" as classical liberals for the purpose of this discussion. Or as "right wingers."

    Classical liberal ideology isn't about seeing a homeless/poor person and concluding they are morally and automatically deserving of their fate. But it is about the maturity to accept that the world will never be perfect, or even easy for most people. We believe it's folly to try building a government devoted to excessively softening the blows of life.

    I think classical liberals are also about practical solutions. For example, I think France's power grid is fantastic. They are using nuclear power at a rate that the rest of the industrialized world should have been at decades ago. It's a functional, state-commanded project and the numbers mostly add up in the favor of France.

    But energy is a big problem, and the state coming up with a creative solution is an example of a state building a platform for the rest of the economy to flourish. Most of the business of the state is dealing with "small" problems that often aren't even problems. Or eventually work themselves out. In short, the state is human weakness, but institutionalized and never allowed to be subject to the human forces of creative destruction.

    As I mentioned in another thread, my nightmare is a sclerotic economic backwater where the state has promised everything but is functionally able to deliver nothing. States are about creating platforms for civilization. They should not be the end goal of the civilization itself.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Perhaps they're merely looking at a different set of correlates? Hard work and ambition are not sufficient conditions for "success", but they're traits which are closer to necessary conditions than pretty much anything else you might find. Success is strongly correlated with them.
    Of course, but in case you haven't read Lewk's posts for the past few years (and I wouldn't blame you), the rewards for success weltanschauung means they have to focus on diligence and morality and explain away all the other factors; "usually" "in the majority of cases" and so many other weasel words used to portray the situation as such that it's a-okay to be a condescending monster towards people who don't drive three BMWs at once, most of them deserve it due to their own lax morals and laziness.

    It's an emotional argument at heart, geared towards the political climate you guys suffer under.

    Of course we both know that one has to actually do something to get anything done, and I don't have a problem with ambition per se! It's the absurd conclusions this mind-set draws from it that I find objectionable. The devil's in the details, not everything is a simple dichotomy, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    I felt there was a deliberate negative connotation with the line "instead of promoting selfless, God-fearing busy-bees." Might be reading it wrong since I don't know you but from the tone of your posts that is what came across.
    If we hadn't all agreed to play nice, something many people seem to have forgotten, I could've gotten very cross with you Lewk; I routinely do over-time hours without compensation. Trying to conflate me with your couch-dwelling "liberal friends" (is that like how I have black buddies?) isn't going to suffice.

    (Negative connotation comes from God-fearing, of course, because religion is a disease, but that's mostly a different thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    So if someone is lazy are they more or less likely to fail at life? Are you arguing that hard work and laziness are not strongly correlated to success and failure?
    See, again. Reward-punishment, myopia, inability to grasp larger wholes. It is plausible, is it not, that these are not the sole factors at work? And your usual retort will be "well in most cases" at which point I punch you in the mouth if I had any Texan blood in me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    As I mentioned in another thread, my nightmare is a sclerotic economic backwater where the state has promised everything but is functionally able to deliver nothing. States are about creating platforms for civilization. They should not be the end goal of the civilization itself.
    Ooh, what a delicious conversation-starter! I'll get back to this when it isn't 20 minutes after waking up.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  19. #19
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    So if someone is lazy are they more or less likely to fail at life? Are you arguing that hard work and laziness are not strongly correlated to success and failure?
    I'm pretty sure there's no strong correlation.

    And the construction worker does very hard work, however, I wouldn't call it "sucessful" in the sense you're talking about here - he'll hardly ever become a millionaire being a construction worker. Or a miner. Or a sweat shop worker.

    Plenty of examples where "hard work" does no yield the "success" you're talking about.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    I'm pretty sure there's no strong correlation.

    And the construction worker does very hard work, however, I wouldn't call it "sucessful" in the sense you're talking about here - he'll hardly ever become a millionaire being a construction worker. Or a miner. Or a sweat shop worker.

    Plenty of examples where "hard work" does no yield the "success" you're talking about.
    Under Lewk's logic everyone working two or more jobs, for a lot more than 40 hours a week of total time spent working, is both hard working, disciplined, and ambitious and thus should be very successful, and therefore very wealthy. This is obviously not the case. For thousands of people.

    Edit: He doesn't even say "may end up wealthy" ...

    Hard work, ambition and discipline will make one wealthy.
    ...he says "will make one wealthy".
    . . .

  21. #21
    And the construction worker does very hard work, however, I wouldn't call it "sucessful" in the sense you're talking about here - he'll hardly ever become a millionaire being a construction worker. Or a miner. Or a sweat shop worker.
    I don't classify being a millionaire as the threshold to success. If someone can provide for their family, have security in terms of savings, avoid going into debt and save for retirement? That seems pretty successful to me.

    Plenty of examples where "hard work" does no yield the "success" you're talking about.
    You also need some kind of ambition. Working hard is one of the essential ingredients to success but it is not the only one. Again though if someone is lazy that is going to be a huge determinate to ever making themselves independent on and not reliant on government to save them.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    You also need some kind of ambition.
    From the dictionary:


    • having a strong desire for success or achievement
    • requiring full use of your abilities or resources; "ambitious schedule"; "performed the most challenging task without a mistake"
    From Wikipedia:

    Ambition is the desire for personal achievement. Ambitious persons seek to be the best at what they choose to do for attainment, power, or superiority. Ambition is also the object of this desire.
    . . .

  23. #23
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    What you're not understanding, Lewk, is that it's not a two-way-street.

    Yes, ambition, hard work and willpower is an important ingredient to success. However, the lack of success does not mean that you had no ambition, hard work or willpower.

    Sometimes, relationships are only one way. Maybe you'll need a Venn diagram to understand it? Or, in easier terms: All mice are animals. That doesn't mean that all animals are mice.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  24. #24
    Interesting that the lefties attribute success to everything but personal characteristics. I guess it makes it easier to tax the hell out of successful ones and provide a lifetime of benefits to the rest.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Interesting that the lefties attribute success to everything but personal characteristics. I guess it makes it easier to tax the hell out of successful ones and provide a lifetime of benefits to the rest.
    No. We're trying to get the point across that sometimes it takes more than hard work, ambition, discipline, determination etc. in order to be successful, that not all successful people possess these traits, and that sometimes external circumstances can either make someone successful or curtail their success, regardless of their personal characteristics. These examples are then used to demonstrate that it does not logically follow that someone who is unsuccessful is lazy, lacks ambition, is not disciplined, or lacks determination.

    *Success in this instance being whether or not one has sufficient savings and income to provide for their lifestyle without fear of debt.

    Additionally - your posting this retort only furthers to back Nessus' hypothesis that certain people lack the mindset necessary to understand these ideas, since no one is claiming what you wrote.

    Further Addendum - Since we're not running a socialist or communist economy, there will always be people at the lower end of the income spectrum. If everyone displayed exemplary ambition, determination, discipline, and committed themselves to working hard, there would still be people who would have to fill out the low paying jobs; they would be in the lower income brackets, and thus unsuccessful according to Lewkowski's standards.
    . . .

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    No. We're trying to get the point across that sometimes it takes more than hard work, ambition, discipline, determination etc. in order to be successful, that not all successful people possess these traits, and that sometimes external circumstances can either make someone successful or curtail their success, regardless of their personal characteristics. These examples are then used to demonstrate that it does not logically follow that someone who is unsuccessful is lazy, lacks ambition, is not disciplined, or lacks determination.

    *Success in this instance being whether or not one has sufficient savings and income to provide for their lifestyle without fear of debt.

    Additionally - your posting this retort only furthers to back Nessus' hypothesis that certain people lack the mindset necessary to understand these ideas, since no one is claiming what you wrote.
    Except Khen said there's no strong correlation between personal traits and success. To have a strong correlation, you don't need every hard-working person to succeed or every successful person to be hard-working. You just someone who's hard-working to be substantially more likely to be successful than the general population.

    It's rather odd that from the people in poverty, a large portion either have horrible parents, didn't finish high school, have a criminal record, or got knocked up/got someone knocked up at a young age. It's one thing to say that not everyone who tries succeeds, but it's quite another to suggest that there's no strong relationship between the two.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Interesting that the lefties attribute success to everything but personal characteristics.


    Unless you mean lefties who don't post here. Grow up Loki.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  28. #28
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Interesting that the lefties attribute success to everything but personal characteristics. I guess it makes it easier to tax the hell out of successful ones and provide a lifetime of benefits to the rest.
    Interesting that righties are unable to read.

    I said, and I quote me on that:
    ambition, hard work and willpower is an important ingredient to success
    How is that "anything but personal characteristics"?

    Let me put it in mathematic terms: Certain personal characteristics are a necessary precondition. They're not, however, sufficient preconditions.

    And I'd wonder how you'd define someone like Paris Hilton. I mean, she's "successful" when we apply Lewk's definition for success and yet she's anything but hard working. Could it be that some people simply just need to rest on what their predecessors reaped?

    I mean, that's the other end of the scale, which some people here willingly ignore as well.

    Or what about people winning 100 Million Euros in a lottery? That is also success in Lewk's book. And yet it's definitely not hard work.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Interesting that the lefties attribute success to everything but personal characteristics. I guess it makes it easier to tax the hell out of successful ones and provide a lifetime of benefits to the rest.
    Intelligence is worth more than hard work, any day.

    Work smarter, not harder, etc.

    I object more to the narrow definition of what is successful we are now using. Maybe some people consider success being able to milk the government for every penny they possibly can.
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by littlelolligagged View Post
    I object more to the narrow definition of what is successful we are now using. Maybe some people consider success being able to milk the government for every penny they possibly can.
    Oh, sure. The measure of success I outlined was part of the perverted weltanschauung of the type of conservative I wanted to discuss; I wouldn't agree with that definition either.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

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