Racist by dint of insinuating that people are racist? Lewk, I'm coming to join ya!
Are you seriously claiming that Dread starting attacking Obama only when it was revealed the latter wasn't pro-Israel?
Hope is the denial of reality
Both of started around then. Could be coincidence.
So the fact that Dread is incredibly pro-business and Obama is not (something you said) wouldn't provide a more plausible explanation for Dread's opposition to Obama?
Hope is the denial of reality
Yes, Obama is not incredibly pro-business, only moderately so. AFAIK the Dems have never had an "incredibly pro-business" president. Why would Dread be a Dem then? Or you?
Which was about the time the whisper campaign about him being anti-Israel got started. Totally unsubstantiated, but it was targeting Jews, since as a group that is one of their few push-button issues. IIRC never was clear who started it, Hillary or Fox/GOP. I'd suspect Hillary since it was during the primaries, but then Fox's several month's long rumination on Obama in madrassas, Obama's birth certificate, "Barack Hussein Obama," Obama the non-Christian also started during the primaries.
So Dread would have no reason to strongly dislike Obama except for him not being pro-Israel?
Hope is the denial of reality
Tear is just interpreting things to meet his worldview.
I find it amusing that you two are registered Democrats. Does this make you more of a Democrat than people who are Democrats in states where people don't have to register their party affiliation to vote in a primary? It doesn't force you into always voting for Democrats in general elections, after all. But you're both so careful to make it known that you are registered.
We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.
That's the part I don't get. Tear claims Dread is far to the right, yet the only reason why he would hate a left-wing president is because of his position on Israel...
In New York, the Democrat is going to win the election 9 times out of 10. Voting in the general election doesn't really make a difference. The primary is where you can make a difference.
Hope is the denial of reality
Yet another straw man, Loki. Third in this thread. I didn't claim Dread was far right. If you can't debate honestly, how about you shut up? Your lies are right here for all to see.
I'm more than just "registered" as Democrat. I generally vote Democratic. And I've always been honest about the fact that one of the reasons for that is because the state GOP is A) absolutely insane and B) in general insists that it does not want or need the vote of any goddamned homosexual. Or really, member of any minority.
The Dems keep room in the party for conservative donkeys. The GOP is not interested in there being room for liberal elephants.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.
I have not registered in a party for about 15 years, when I was a registered Republican. That is mainly a relic of my family upbringing and the fact that the local Dem party machine was horrendously corrupt, precluding voting for them in the large majority of cases.
Of course not. I was just poking fun at labels. I'm not really a fan of either party. Until the primary system changes or the kind of people who vote in them changes, we'll be stuck with extremists or idiots (or people pandering to extremists or odiots) in many parts of our government.
Hope is the denial of reality
And this is where we agree. My problem is not that the Dems are good. My problem is that the Reps are worse. I've been voting the lesser of two evils my whole life (and occasionally I have identified the wrong greater evil).
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
I see. You do understand that if I lived somewhere that I had to register to vote in a primary I would, but Georgia doesn't work like that.
See, I think the problem is that too much of the actual governing is fairly centrist - while campaigning politicians may pander to the fringes, but they have no intention of actually carrying through. The way our system is set up that makes only two parties viable guarantees it will always stay that way, too.
We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.
Not necessarily. True, more often than not NYC Jews are liberals. But the ardently pro-business (or maybe I should say pro-corporate) and pro-Israel Jews are not necessarily liberal. Both have a history of some paranoia about anti-Semitism. Oh, not the overt cases, where we all come down on it. But the cases where it is conjured out of little or nothing. After all, one of the longest running threads in CC was the zionuts thread, where Dread (rightly) attacked true anti-Semites and (wrongly) smeared those who had the chutzpah to be critical of Israel.
That makes for pro-McCain NYC Jews. Or more accurately, stridently anti-Obama NYC Jews. They voted for a guy who opposed gay rights, and fiscally advocated everything Bush II endorsed. They basically gave a thumbs up to the entire Bush presidency. Their few qualms were tepid, and nowhere came even close to the strength of their opposition to Obama. Yeah. Loki would occasionally drop a notice that deficit spending was bad, but he was happy to side with McCain, whose economic policies were indistinguishable from Bush's. What in the world could cause somebody to vociferously do so, other than a guy who had been painted as anti-Israel?
I disagree. Too much of the governing is partisan. FAR more fillibusters than any time in history. Worst partisanship in anybody's lifetime.
As for carrying through, we had a president impeached for blowjobs. The government is virtually paralyzed. One party lies much of the time, while the other lies all of the time.
The country does better when the governing is moderate. I VERY strongly believe this.
Do you realize that only something like 10-20% of New York Jews voted for McCain?
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...618408,00.html
Only if by centrist you mean nothing ever gets done and the size of the government continues to bloat while taxes remain unchanged (or are cut). That's not centrist; that's idiotic. When Clinton and the Republican Congress sharply cut welfare, and increased taxes to get rid of the deficit, that was centrist.
Last edited by Loki; 09-30-2010 at 01:03 AM.
Hope is the denial of reality
I didn't say liberal, I said DEMOCRAT. You keep persisting in talking about party, and positions/ideology as if they are or should be the same.
The fact that Obama always made it quite clear on campaign *and since taking office* that he would be even worse, fiscally, than W?That makes for pro-McCain NYC Jews. Or more accurately, stridently anti-Obama NYC Jews. They voted for a guy who opposed gay rights, and fiscally advocated everything Bush II endorsed. They basically gave a thumbs up to the entire Bush presidency. Their few qualms were tepid, and nowhere came even close to the strength of their opposition to Obama. Yeah. Loki would occasionally drop a notice that deficit spending was bad, but he was happy to side with McCain, whose economic policies were indistinguishable from Bush's. What in the world could cause somebody to vociferously do so, other than a guy who had been painted as anti-Israel?
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
The problem isn't the two parties - it's the primary system. If anything, a two-party system prevents either party from going far from the center. If we had PR, we'd probably have a Christian fundie party and a Labor party, which would get to extort policies out of whoever they formed a coalition with.
Hope is the denial of reality
But wouldn't a moderate party get most of the votes, since people on the left and right can all live with them? That said, we currently have a likely coalition that bent over for a crap party And that while there was a moderate, centrist option but politician ego's got in the way
At the moment the fringes get to extort policies out of candidates because they wouldn't win the primaries without them.
Keep on keepin' the beat alive!
You chide me for conflation, and then use the word "worse?" For shame!
It was and is clear that Obama would never have started the horrifically expensive boondoggle that was Iraq. That he would have placed the proper importance on Afghanistan. That right there would save a trillion dollars, no? Also, since reform of the health care system is desperately needed to save our economy, somebody trying to fix it is by far to be preferred over somebody who will sweep it under the rug for another decade. Finally, as I've said from the get go in what, 2007, that I would vote for any Republican other than a true leftist simply to repudiate W's disastrous policies in every sphere. I stand by that. In the long run, we will be far better for a Democrat being in the White House, any Democrat, compared to McCain, who ran straight to the far right extremists in the election and ran as a W clone.