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Thread: Old man hits Hells Angel with cane, gets jailed

  1. #1

    Default Old man hits Hells Angel with cane, gets jailed

    OAP jailed for beating Hell's Angel

    Published Date: 25 September 2010
    By Tony Gardner

    A pensioner who attacked a "fearsome" Hell's Angel with his walking stick after he was racially abused has been sent to prison for 18 months.

    Keith Degroot smashed 6ft 3in muscular biker gang member Stephen Hall across the head after he knocked the 66-year-old's glasses off and called him a "f***** Jew" in a Leeds pub.

    Mr Hall, 56, suffered a fractured cheek and other serious head and facial injuries and was knocked senseless.

    The clash took place after the two men had spent the day drinking at the Duck and Drake, in Leeds city centre. The pair were regulars in the pub and knew each other by their nicknames 'Plug' and 'Cockney Keith'.

    John Harrison, prosecuting, told Sheffield Crown Court that what began as light hearted banter between the pair turned serious.

    He said: "Stephen Hall knocked the defendant's glasses off and the defendant got up from the table and struck Mr Hall with a full swing of his walking stick."

    Mr Hall spent five days in hospital after the attack on April 19 last
    year.

    He also suffered bleeding to his brain and damaged nasal bones and cuts.
    Degroot pleaded guilty to causing grievous bodily harm.

    He said he had struck Mr Hall after he had been intimidated.

    The pensioner said he knew Hall was a member of the Blue Angels chapter of the Hell's Angels and the organisation had a reputation for using violence in disputes.

    The pensioner has previous convictions for violence. But he had not been in trouble since the 1990s.

    Derek Duffy, mitigating, said: "The Blue Angels is a chapter of Hell's Angels fairly well known in the Leeds area."

    Mr Duffy said Degroot only struck one blow and it was not premeditated.
    Witnesses in the pub saw the exchange between the two men before the violence.
    The barrister described Mr Hall as a "large man with a fearsome reputation" who behaved in an abusive and aggressive manner.
    Turn to page 2

    Mr Duffy added: "The complainant is 6ft 3in, has a shaved head, is of a heavy, muscular, build and in his fifties.

    "Mr Degroot can neither be described as large or muscular.

    "During the course of the exchange Mr Hall called the defendant a f***** jew and knocked his pint over."

    He said Mr Hall then knocked the pensioner's glasses off.

    Degroot, who lives in sheltered accommodation in Leeds, has a disability and walks with a stick.

    Describing the incident as an "exceptional case", Mr Duffy said: "There is no suggestion on this occasion that Degroot was acting in an aggressive manner.

    "This is a case where, on the basis of it, there is a significant element of provocation by a man who has both a reputation and a size that would intimidate many."

    Recorder Jane Rowley said she accepted Degroot had reacted after "racist provocation" and took into account his age and that he only struck one blow.

    She said: "I accept that you did not intend serious harm but that your reaction was that you were reckless as to whether harm was caused when you struck him a blow of some force with a strike to the face.

    "It would be obvious to most people that serious injury may well follow.

    "Your offence is so serious that neither a fine nor community punishment can be imposed."


    http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.u...39s.6549754.jp
    Anyone else find a jail sentence a bit over the top based on the information here?

  2. #2
    The irony is that British youths regularly get probation for similar assaults.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Anyone else find a jail sentence a bit over the top based on the information here?
    I suppose it depends on what kind of a record Mr. Degroot had. It does say he has previous convictions for violence! Of course, I do find the sentence to be extreme, considering the difference in physical health, size, and age, between the two men.

    Besides, being a big, bad Hell's Angel, you would have thought that Mr. Hall would be embarrassed to admit an old man beat the shit out of him!
    I don't have a problem with authority....I just don't like being told what to do!Remember, the toes you step on today may be attached to the ass you have to kiss tomorrow!RIP Fluffy! 01-07-09 I'm so sorry Fluffster! People who don't like cats were probably mice in an earlier life! My mind not only wanders, sometimes it leaves completely!The nice part about living in a small town: When you don't know what you're doing, someone else always does!
    Atari bullshit refugee!!

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Anyone else find a jail sentence a bit over the top based on the information here?
    Locked up for 18 months is definitely OTT.

    The injury he caused was serious, but the provocation, the size of the other guy, and the circumstances should mitigate that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The irony is that British youths regularly get probation for similar assaults.
    Indeed. Under 18s get away with so much shit here. In and out of detention centres on a regular merry-go-round ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    It's actually the original French billion, which is bi-million, which is a million to the power of 2. We adopted the word, and then they changed it, presumably as revenge for Crecy and Agincourt, and then the treasonous Americans adopted the new French usage and spread it all over the world. And now we have to use it.

    And that's Why I'm Voting Leave.

  5. #5
    Clearly, the laws regarding alcohol consumption are at fault.

    The clash took place after the two men had spent the day drinking at the Duck and Drake, in Leeds city centre. The pair were regulars in the pub and knew each other by their nicknames 'Plug' and 'Cockney Keith'.

  6. #6
    Uhm, please. 'Old man hits Hells Angel' is hardly a fair assessment. The 'old man' was 66, and the 'victim' was 56. They were both obviously idiots, and at least one of them was an asshole to boot. I don't really know sentencing laws in the UK so I can't judge how the 18 months stacks up, but I definitely know that the attacker deserved some sort of punishment (at least a civil judgment IMO, possibly criminal as well). It's not like he isn't aware that whacking someone in the face with a club can cause pretty serious damage. I don't care how much he was provoked, the level of violence he used was unacceptable.

  7. #7
    this is the beginning of the end for that old man
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    this is the beginning of the end for that old man
    How can you be sure it's the beginning?
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  9. #9
    Because his dementia and general health will pass the critical threshold now. It's very sad, but I can only hope that all the facts have been taken into consideration
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  10. #10
    What happened to that guy that attacked Rand?
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Anyone else find a jail sentence a bit over the top based on the information here?
    It seems a bit much given all the facts, but not so much that I'd want to make something out of it. I think 3-6 months would be more appropriate, but the guy shouldn't really get off scott free.

  12. #12
    Congrats. Dread wins the "Cain award for misleading thread title." Hasn't it been you who claims how much age has changed things, and how that should change SS and retirement age? Perhaps in this case we should call 66 "middle age."

    Fractured cheekbone? Unconscious? 5 days in hospital? Aggravated assault is aggravated assault, and mild provocation is not an excuse. As long as the assaulter is an adult, such an event should result in solid jail time. Is 18 months extreme? Perhaps, I dunno what the standard is. Rand is probably our best reference point. Is 18 months extreme for fucking up your face with aggravated assault, Rand?

  13. #13
    Do we really need the Caingasms?

    Anyway, obviously the injuries do seem to be severe. Yet there are apparently witnesses who testify to a clear threat and the fact that the guy was only hit once. In many areas, that's considered a defense for reasonable expectation of harm.

  14. #14
    Hmmm

    Well the biker damaged the pensioners property so I think he had a right to defend himself. I'm going with the punishment being out of line here, a smaller sentence should have been given.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Hmmm

    Well the biker damaged the pensioners property so I think he had a right to defend himself. I'm going with the punishment being out of line here, a smaller sentence should have been given.
    Wait, neither one should be shot? What have you been smoking?
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Do we really need the Caingasms?

    Anyway, obviously the injuries do seem to be severe. Yet there are apparently witnesses who testify to a clear threat and the fact that the guy was only hit once. In many areas, that's considered a defense for reasonable expectation of harm.
    Like the judge said, if you hit someone in the face with a swing of a stick, "It would be obvious to most people that serious injury may well follow."

    Hitting somebody once, sure. Hitting someone once, in the face, with a swing with a cane, sending him to the hospital for 5 days, that's different.

    I don't know about the punishment, I don't know what is generally the sentence for these kind of things, and what the guy's past with violent offenses was. But the thread title is really misleading.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  17. #17
    Could have killed him. Hard enough to fracture bones and cause brain hemorrhaging is definitely in the kill range. The guy spent five days in the hospital because the docs were afraid of exactly that. So, if somebody calls me names, knocks my beer over and gives me a playful slap, I can try to kill them? Cool.

    BTW, in the article it is called a "walking stick." Not necessarily a cane; not necessarily a sign of infirmity or a frail little prop. It could also be (and given the injuries is probably) closer to a baseball bat.

    I wonder if we'd be hearing about this if the offender weren't Jewish and some anti-Jewish sentiment weren't expressed. Or more accurately, I wonder if the misleading title and event spin would be occurring.

  18. #18
    And Tear plays the "Jews only care about Jews card" again.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    And Tear plays the "Jews only care about Jews card" again.
    It's a pretty funny card, though
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  20. #20
    What's happened to you Tear. No, this doesn't have to do with Jews.

    I actually posted it because I saw it on Gawker. Heard of it? It reminded me of Rand's incident (except in this case someone defended himself and somehow got sent to jail).

  21. #21
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Self defense is allowed, but it has to be proportional to how much defense you need. Hitting him would have been okay, swinging a walking stick in his face is over the top.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  22. #22
    I think hitting someone is never okay unless you feel threatened. The question is whether it was in the heat of the moment and the older man felt threatened. If he did and struck once, it's reasonable to assume he wasn't trying to break the guy's skull.

  23. #23
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    Like the judge said, if you hit someone in the face with a swing of a stick, "It would be obvious to most people that serious injury may well follow."
    So the point was that he could/should have known.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  24. #24
    I know, but I disagree with the judge. The reason this is even a story is because it's not obvious to move people.

    As the mitigating witnesses testified, it was a single swing on a guy who was apparently threatening physical harm. I just don't see how that justifies sending him to jail for 18 months.

  25. #25
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    The guy had previous convictions for violent offenses, so probably he is no stranger to a fight, so yes, he should have known. And if you swing what is essentially a club in someone's face because he broke your glasses..

    Not sure about the length of the sentence, but I guess that also depends on what others get for similar charges, and what his history was.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    Self defense is allowed, but it has to be proportional to how much defense you need. Hitting him would have been okay, swinging a walking stick in his face is over the top.
    If the one hit doesn't drop the guy and keep him from being a further threat to you, then it's not proportional to how much defense you can reasonably think you need, IMO.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  27. #27
    I was just going to say that. If the old guy hits the other guy and doesn't knock him out, what do you think happens to him?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  28. #28
    Just Floatin... termite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The irony is that British youths regularly get probation for similar assaults.
    His history of violent assaults would deem this a moot point.
    Such is Life...

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by termite View Post
    His history of violent assaults would deem this a moot point.
    A lot of the youths in question have a dozen convictions to their name.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    And Tear plays the "Jews only care about Jews card" again.
    Only with people who will land on the side of a Jew in a conflict 9 times out of ten. For example, starting to non-stop attack a presidential candidate when it is published that his position on Israel is less fellatio-based that previous presidents. When I see that, I've got to ask myself whether it is systematic.

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