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Thread: "Zarmina's World" -- Astronomer's Zeroing in On Habitable Extrasolars

  1. #1

    Default "Zarmina's World" -- Astronomer's Zeroing in On Habitable Extrasolars

    Based on the finding below, potentially habitable worlds may number in the billions. This is fun stuff. What amazes me in this new astronomy is how much we're able to detect right here from home. When you play a 4x game or read the fiction, we always had to GO to neighboring stars to find any places to colonize. But now we can see from here and I'm guessing astronomy's only going to get more capable in the near future. Going to have to update the SciFi -- whenever (if ever) we go to set up an extra solar colony, we'll have a good idea what we're going to find when we get there. Wonderful stuff!

    Astronomers Find Most Earth-like Planet to Date

    by Phil Berardelli on 29 September 2010, 5:25 PM | Permanent Link | 9 Comments

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    Carbon copy? The Gliese 581 solar system resembles our own but on a much smaller scale.
    Credit: Zina Deretsky/National Science Foundation

    Survivalists take note. Astronomers may have found the most Earth-like alien planet to date, and it's located only a short distance away, cosmically speaking. The team says that the planet's proximity to its sun, coupled with the ease with which it was detected, suggests that the galaxy could be teeming with habitable worlds.

    Most of the 500 or so planets astronomers have found orbiting other stars have fallen into the gas-giant class: very large worlds, some much bigger than Jupiter, that can't support life, because they lack solid surfaces, and because they orbit either too far from or much too close to their suns. The few rocky worlds discovered so far also orbit too near or far from stars to fall into what planetary scientists call the "habitable zone," in which liquid water—and therefore life—could exist.

    But Gliese 581g looks like a game-changer. Detected from the minuscule amount of gravitational influence it exerts on its star, the planet lives a mere 20 light-years away in the constellation Libra. Gliese 581g is the sixth world discovered around its sun—and the fourth most distant. Yet its orbit brings it closer to its parent star than Mercury is to our sun. Still, it's squarely within the habitable zone, because the planet's star, which is a type known as a red dwarf, contains only about 30% of the sun's mass and shines with only about 1% of its brightness, the researchers will report in an upcoming issue of the Astrophysical Journal.

    That said, if Gliese 581g harbors any kind of life, the creatures would inhabit a world quite different from our own. For one thing, explains astronomer and co-author Steven Vogt of the University of California, Santa Cruz, Gliese 581g is "tidally locked" to its star. Just like our moon, the length of Gliese 581g's day precisely matches the length of its year. Consequently, the planet rotates so that it always shows the same face to its sun. Another difference is that the star casts Gliese 581g in a soft, red light that would give the appearance of a perpetual sunset.

    On the other hand, Vogt told reporters during an online briefing today, the perpetual days or nights would mean that the planet could develop highly stable habitats. Although the most comfortable areas for humans would lie along the so-called terminator—the zone between the world's dayside and nightside—other creatures with preferences for hotter or colder temperatures could find tolerable conditions elsewhere on the surface.

    There's another advantage, says astronomer and co-author Paul Butler of the Carnegie Institution for Science in Washington, D.C. Because red-dwarf stars are essentially immortal—their life spans are much longer than our sun's—life could have many more chances of gaining a foothold on Gliese 581g. The key is whether liquid water exists on the surface, Butler explained at the briefing. The planet is about 3.1 times more massive than Earth—bulky enough to hold onto an atmosphere and to keep liquid water from evaporating into space. And "on Earth, anywhere you find liquid water you have life," Butler says.

    But whether Gliese 581g harbors life may not be the most striking aspect of this find. Vogt says the discovery of a potentially habitable world less than 100 light-years away means that habitable worlds may be much more common than astronomers thought. Given the number of stars in the Milky Way, Vogt explains, that could mean there are "potentially billions" of Earth-like worlds out there.

    Planetary scientist Jack Lissauer of NASA's Ames Research Center at Moffett Field, California, agrees. "It's a big breakthrough. Gliese 581g could be a big, rocky planet with oceans on its surface warmed by the faint but nearby red-dwarf star," he says. Or it could be a "mini-Neptune, hosting a massive atmosphere above a surface that is far too hot for life as we know it." But however it turns out, the discovery promises "even more exciting news in the near future."
    http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceno...ike.html?rss=1
    Last edited by EyeKhan; 10-04-2010 at 07:15 PM.
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  2. #2
    The sad thing is that we could already try to go there, but we're busy making Axe spray and pens that read text aloud to you.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    The sad thing is that we could already try to go there, but we're busy making Axe spray and pens that read text aloud to you.
    That's the most maddening thing about our economic model -- that and its ultimately going to lead to self-destruction.
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  4. #4
    Everything has to die eventually, but agreed about the infuriatingNess of the hedonistic market.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  5. #5
    But money! Money! Money!

    And, fuck health and well-being, if there is not money! to be made. In fact, fuck all science, unless free marketeers produce it. And given the decades-long travel time each way, don't expect free marketeers to be interested. Their interest horizon is about two years. Feel free to draw conclusions from such short-sightedness when look at the world around you today. Markets are great for some things, but they are remarkaly stupid for others.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by ']['ear View Post
    But money! Money! Money!

    And, fuck health and well-being, if there is not money! to be made. In fact, fuck all science, unless free marketeers produce it. And given the decades-long travel time each way, don't expect free marketeers to be interested. Their interest horizon is about two years. Feel free to draw conclusions from such short-sightedness when look at the world around you today. Markets are great for some things, but they are remarkaly stupid for others.
    Its not just time, its return on investment. If it was time alone, we'd be taking vacations on Luna.
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  7. #7
    I was getting at that with shorthand.

    All the old SF masters couldn't imagine certain things. You know, far better optics and computers to massage the information. Oh, and they couldn't imagine a world without cigs. I kept laughing when recently reading a Phillip K. Dick collection of shorts. Half the stories had guys lighting up in spacecraft. Amazing how often one comes across that from 50s writers. Did these guys not realize how anathema smoking is to operational safety of any kind of equipment?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by ']['ear View Post
    I was getting at that with shorthand.

    All the old SF masters couldn't imagine certain things. You know, far better optics and computers to massage the information. Oh, and they couldn't imagine a world without cigs. I kept laughing when recently reading a Phillip K. Dick collection of shorts. Half the stories had guys lighting up in spacecraft. Amazing how often one comes across that from 50s writers. Did these guys not realize how anathema smoking is to operational safety of any kind of equipment?
    To give them the benefit of the doubt, they might have been trying to convey how routine space travel had become -- you could even do something as casual as smoke a cigarette. I don't know the context of the specific story, however....

    I remember reading a scifi story where the character's boss was a chain smoker who was on their "third set of lungs." You could also stretch the benefit of the doubt to include a technological level that allowed you to not only smoke in a spacecraft cabin but also ignore the health effects. Not sure if the technology to ignore how annoying it is to share air with a chain smoker is possible...
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    To give them the benefit of the doubt, they might have been trying to convey how routine space travel had become -- you could even do something as casual as smoke a cigarette. I don't know the context of the specific story, however....

    I remember reading a scifi story where the character's boss was a chain smoker who was on their "third set of lungs." You could also stretch the benefit of the doubt to include a technological level that allowed you to not only smoke in a spacecraft cabin but also ignore the health effects. Not sure if the technology to ignore how annoying it is to share air with a chain smoker is possible...
    Well, that's generous. I think more likely they just considered smoking to be such a universal habit and right that under no circumstances could smoking be questionable.

    Some examples are Niven ramscoop stories, where they were working at the end of the technology, and space was exceedingly limited. Yet they still have guys smoking, even though the constraints on air purity would be beyond the pale.

  10. #10
    Everyone in the old Foundation book smoked, too. These were people who had built and ruined a galaxy-spanning empire, too.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    The sad thing is that we could already try to go there, but we're busy making Axe spray and pens that read text aloud to you.
    Sending people would have to be a one way trip as even at .5c it would be at least a 40 year trip, and then people back on Earth wouldn't know if they had succeeded for another 20 years after that. So if we did it tomorrow, likely all of us here would either be dead or getting there by the time we'd find out. Anybody who would be working on this would also likely be dead or getting there too, and the people we sent to the Gliese system would be dead before they'd get a message back from us letting them know that they were successful in sending their own message. So I doubt that Axe spray and talking pens are holding us back so much as not having a good portion of scientists, engineers, etc. focusing on space exploration.

    Edit: I think the article also fails to mention the fact that a tidally locked planet with an atmosphere capable of supporting earth-like life would have one hell of a wind problem.
    . . .

  12. #12
    I think a more important question is how this will affect future 4x games.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    Sending people would have to be a one way trip as even at .5c it would be at least a 40 year trip, and then people back on Earth wouldn't know if they had succeeded for another 20 years after that. So if we did it tomorrow, likely all of us here would either be dead or getting there by the time we'd find out. Anybody who would be working on this would also likely be dead or getting there too, and the people we sent to the Gliese system would be dead before they'd get a message back from us letting them know that they were successful in sending their own message. So I doubt that Axe spray and talking pens are holding us back so much as not having a good portion of scientists, engineers, etc. focusing on space exploration.
    Because they're busy making better Axe sprays and gels, and pens with sing-song voices. So it goes.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Because they're busy making better Axe sprays and gels, and pens with sing-song voices. So it goes.
    And mechanical heart valves, replacement organs, faster computers, cleaner energy technologies, safer cars, the ability to feed billions of people, etc.
    . . .

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    And mechanical heart valves, replacement organs, faster computers, cleaner energy technologies, safer cars, the ability to feed billions of people, etc.
    Shush, you.

    (so that the second verse is not the same as the first, I'm not being very serious right now)
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Shush, you.

    (so that the second verse is not the same as the first, I'm not being very serious right now)
    just you wait till the people on Gliese 581g hear about this...
    . . .

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by ']['ear View Post
    Well, that's generous. I think more likely they just considered smoking to be such a universal habit and right that under no circumstances could smoking be questionable.

    Some examples are Niven ramscoop stories, where they were working at the end of the technology, and space was exceedingly limited. Yet they still have guys smoking, even though the constraints on air purity would be beyond the pale.
    Huh, I don't remember smokers in Niven scifi. Do you happen to recall the story? I've got more or less everything he wrote, I want to look it up...

    I guess its difficult to understand today how absolutely pervasive smoking must have been back then. In 50 years, who knows, maybe something as universal as eating meat from animals we actually killed will be unthinkable. Like if all our meat is vat grown, or artificial in some other way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I think a more important question is how this will affect future 4x games.
    Seems like it would make them less fun. Maybe. If you really wanted to be accurate, you could start out knowing how many and what kind of planets all the nearby stars have, but not know how habitable they are. Though I'd think in the next couple decades we'll be able to get a chemical signature from an extra solar planets atmosphere and be able to make some pretty good deductions about it's conditions....

    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    Sending people would have to be a one way trip as even at .5c it would be at least a 40 year trip, and then people back on Earth wouldn't know if they had succeeded for another 20 years after that. So if we did it tomorrow, likely all of us here would either be dead or getting there by the time we'd find out. Anybody who would be working on this would also likely be dead or getting there too, and the people we sent to the Gliese system would be dead before they'd get a message back from us letting them know that they were successful in sending their own message. So I doubt that Axe spray and talking pens are holding us back so much as not having a good portion of scientists, engineers, etc. focusing on space exploration.

    Edit: I think the article also fails to mention the fact that a tidally locked planet with an atmosphere capable of supporting earth-like life would have one hell of a wind problem.
    I wonder about that wind thing. Elaborate on your thinking, if you don't mind.

    Regarding the colonization itself ---- the time spans involved are not what's holding us back from developing a space faring society. Now, if we'd colonized Mars and Ganymede but still had done nothing to leave Sol, I'd agree. But we can barely get into orbit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Everyone in the old Foundation book smoked, too. These were people who had built and ruined a galaxy-spanning empire, too.
    Well, now we see how they ruined it. But note, if we had absolute medical care - the ability to correct all disease including human aging - why not smoke? Yes its annoying, but I'm sure there's ways to correct that too.
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    And mechanical heart valves, replacement organs, faster computers, cleaner energy technologies, safer cars, the ability to feed billions of people, etc.
    A few comments... we shouldn't have so many billions of people, the clean energy is only a too-late reaction to the growing realization that we've fucked up our climate, and nobody should be driving cars. That's plain stupid technology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    just you wait till the people on Gliese 581g hear about this...
    Tish tosh. I serioulsy doubt any reasonable person could properly consider them people.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    I wonder about that wind thing. Elaborate on your thinking, if you don't mind.
    Wind is caused by air moving from an area of high pressure to low pressure, and also from an area that is hot to an area that is cold. One side of the planet is always facing the sun, while the other is not. It has a pretty extreme temperature difference from one side to the other, so I'm assuming the resultant wind would be pretty extreme too.
    . . .

  20. #20
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    Wind is caused by air moving from an area of high pressure to low pressure, and also from an area that is hot to an area that is cold. One side of the planet is always facing the sun, while the other is not. It has a pretty extreme temperature difference from one side to the other, so I'm assuming the resultant wind would be pretty extreme too.
    Sure, but the temperature difference is static, the cold side air pressure will rise due to the air flowing their, until it cancels. Unless there is a big source of air on the hot side.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    Sure, but the temperature difference is static, the cold side air pressure will rise due to the air flowing their, until it cancels. Unless there is a big source of air on the hot side.
    He's right - there are going to be constant wind speeds on tidally locked planets with atmospheres. Also remember that hot air rises, and what happens is that in the upper atmosphere air flows from the day side to the night side, where it cools down and sinks, and the pressure causes the cold air to flow from the night side to the day side at ground level. On many planets like that, it's supposed to actually keep the temperature relatively consistent across the planet that way.

  22. #22
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Woops, forgot about that.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    Wind is caused by air moving from an area of high pressure to low pressure, and also from an area that is hot to an area that is cold. One side of the planet is always facing the sun, while the other is not. It has a pretty extreme temperature difference from one side to the other, so I'm assuming the resultant wind would be pretty extreme too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    Sure, but the temperature difference is static, the cold side air pressure will rise due to the air flowing their, until it cancels. Unless there is a big source of air on the hot side.
    Hmmm..... Probably there would be a global circulatory system. On the hot side, the hot air would rise, creating lower pressure near the surface and cool air would rush in underneath from the cold side. OIn the cold side, the lower cool air rushing to the hot side would create lower pressure and the higher cool air would sink to fill it, which would draw in the high hot air on the hot side. So there would be constant wind rushing to the hot side around the light/dark terminus. The question is, how much wind? Certainly enough to create a boat load of electricity, eh? But enough to blow away anything not bolted down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    He's right - there are going to be constant wind speeds on tidally locked planets with atmospheres. Also remember that hot air rises, and what happens is that in the upper atmosphere air flows from the day side to the night side, where it cools down and sinks, and the pressure causes the cold air to flow from the night side to the day side at ground level. On many planets like that, it's supposed to actually keep the temperature relatively consistent across the planet that way.
    Yeah, that;'s what I meant....
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  24. #24
    Chaloobi, while it doesn't have anything to do with tidal-locked planets, I recommend for your reading pleasure Lem's Fiasco. It's about a meeting of civilizations.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Chaloobi, while it doesn't have anything to do with tidal-locked planets, I recommend for your reading pleasure Lem's Fiasco. It's about a meeting of civilizations.
    The title hints at the plot I think... I'll look it up.

    Ordered it. This is the guy that wrote Solaris? Huh.
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  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    The title hints at the plot I think... I'll look it up.
    Yes.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  27. #27
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    Sending people would have to be a one way trip as even at .5c it would be at least a 40 year trip, and then people back on Earth wouldn't know if they had succeeded for another 20 years after that. So if we did it tomorrow, likely all of us here would either be dead or getting there by the time we'd find out. Anybody who would be working on this would also likely be dead or getting there too, and the people we sent to the Gliese system would be dead before they'd get a message back from us letting them know that they were successful in sending their own message. So I doubt that Axe spray and talking pens are holding us back so much as not having a good portion of scientists, engineers, etc. focusing on space exploration.

    Edit: I think the article also fails to mention the fact that a tidally locked planet with an atmosphere capable of supporting earth-like life would have one hell of a wind problem.
    I dare say that even for such a "tiny" trip as 20 lightyears, we'd still need a Generation ship. Reaching .5 c is a fantasy value as the ship would simply lack the reaction mass to reach this velocity. And you also have to consider the time spent decelerating.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  28. #28
    Ok, in addition I ordered His Master's Voice and Cybriad.
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  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    I dare say that even for such a "tiny" trip as 20 lightyears, we'd still need a Generation ship. Reaching .5 c is a fantasy value as the ship would simply lack the reaction mass to reach this velocity. And you also have to consider the time spent decelerating.
    I'm thinking hybernation.
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  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Ok, in addition I ordered His Master's Voice and Cybriad.
    His Master's Voice is perhaps the best book I've read. Dunno if it'll resonate with you.

    Cyberiad is humour and is hilarious!
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

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