Easy rant, reminds me of the problems of California, created by voters who want all sorts of programs, but also refuse to pay taxes. It's easy to be generous with other people's money.
Easy rant, reminds me of the problems of California, created by voters who want all sorts of programs, but also refuse to pay taxes. It's easy to be generous with other people's money.
Congratulations America
Californians get back a lower percentage of their federal tax money than any other state. So who is being generous with other peoples money, hmmmm?Originally Posted by Hazir
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/...mann/#39528043
About 3 mins in he shows the Obion County policy changes approved a couple of years ago, to provide county-wide fire protection. The fire chief wants a "true fire tax".
Guess who gets the most? Alaska. Good old Governer I Quit's old state... Tea Party indeed....Californians get back a lower percentage of their federal tax money than any other state. So who is being generous with other peoples money, hmmmm?
#1. I thought the guy's rant was just this side of stupid, though his overall position is right.
#2. I felt bad for the homeowner now that I see him and hear his voice.
EDIT: regarding GG's second video. They should not have let him talk so much....
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
Actually I felt even less sympathy for him now that I saw him. And what was that nonsense about the pets? They couldn't have let those out in the 2 hours it took for this fire to reach the house.
Congratulations America
My guess is that was a lie. Even the ranter said it was unsubstantiated. In any case, they should have put the fire out.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
The third video is with Robert Reich. They discuss moral hazard and social Darwinism, and the motives of conservatives (Tea Party). He makes his point better; fundamentally are we on our own, or are we in this together? Are we to be totally independent, or interdependent, in a modern civil society?
I think the subtitles are clever--Land of the Fee, Home of the Blaze. Laissez Unfair.
EDIT: Reading back, Dread mentioned volunteer fire fighters. They still get federal grants and state taxes to operate. VFD are more about the staffing of a FD than the funding. Rural America uses lots of "volunteers" but that's a misnomer; they're part-timers and still get paid through a tax system. The only reason they exist is because there's not enough demand for a fully staffed, full-time fire house.
Flixy said it makes sense to tax property, because fire service is for property protection. But that's only true to an extent. Cars, trucks and trains catch fire on roads and highways all the time. When there's a 4 alarm fire or a train or truck chemical spill, all surrounding FDs respond, whether it's in their "jurisdiction" or not. Undeveloped state land abuts private property, and forest fires happen all the time. Don't think we want fire fighters standing around arguing about jurisdiction or property lines, or who's paid for what, before they decide to put out a fire. Do we?
Last edited by GGT; 10-06-2010 at 05:42 PM.
*facepalm*.
Curious why you do that, aggie. What's that even mean?
And what if nobody pays the fee? They still have a right to firetrucks and firefighters putting out fires?
Congratulations America
If you visit that city and park your car inside city limits, do YOU have the right to fire fighters putting out your engine if it starts to smoke and flame?
What if nobody pays the fee? Then they'd be forced to create a true fire tax that covers their expenses. Either that or stop responding to all fire calls and let the whole county go up in flames.
#1. Putting the fire out was the decent, civilized, compassionate, and just thing to do given the specific circumstance.
#2. Fire prootection should not be fee for service that anyone, voluntarily or accidentally, can opt out of.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
@GGT
Yeah, that's a nice point of view that I agree with. But this guy didn't pay because he thought he would get the service even if he declined to cough up his part of the burden. I have zero sympathy for people who first decline the community their contribution, then can't deal with the reality that creates. Why should anybody care about what he or his family lost? They made a choice to live in a world like that.
Congratulations America
The decent, civilized, compassionate thing to do would have been for him to pay the fee so that all properties in his area have protection.
I agree with your second statement, but this guy thought he could only opt out of paying for the service, while not opting out of getting the service. So one of them got a harsh lesson. I hope many more of them will learn that their rejection of community comes at a cost.
Untill that moment let these assholes eat the shit they spread around.
Congratulations America
Where did you get that idea? In his interview he says he forgot to pay the bill, not that he was trying to gouge the community.
It's a bit confusing right now, because one news site claims the $75 is a monthly fee, not an annual one.
Lewk, is that you? Fry 'em, let 'em burn?I have zero sympathy for people who first decline the community their contribution, then can't deal with the reality that creates. Why should anybody care about what he or his family lost? They made a choice to live in a world like that.
Your own post 'I thought they'd come they'd come out and put it out, even if you didn't pay your $75. But I was wrong'. And even if he would claim now that he forgot to pay, how does that change a thing?Where did you get that idea? In his interview he says he forgot to pay the bill, not that he was trying to gouge the community.
It's a bit confusing right now, because one news site claims the $75 is a monthly fee, not an annual one.
Lewk, is that you? Fry 'em, let 'em burn?
Congratulations America
In this specific circumstance, he tried too. But like with God and death, you don't get to say your sorry and make things right after the fire starts apparently.
That's exactly it. These idiots should have some sort of across the board tax that pays for this type of service. Fuckin' Libertarian ideal....I agree with your second statement, but this guy thought he could only opt out of paying for the service, while not opting out of getting the service. So one of them got a harsh lesson. I hope many more of them will learn that their rejection of community comes at a cost.
Untill that moment let these assholes eat the shit they spread around.
No, it's FIRE that spreads. You're sounding mean and spiteful....for what reason or purpose?Untill that moment let these assholes eat the shit they spread around.
Even arson fires "deserve" to be put out.
Ummm, not if it's Al-Qaeda headquarters.
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
Not if you think that a fire dept isn't worth paying for. Also I think that they were right not to let him 'opt in' once the fire started. It's that kind of egoism that could have caused there not to be a fire dept at all. Since he obviously didn't care to pay up for that specific cause, he's got very little right to be upset now. You don't hear his neighbour whining about getting a crappy deal do you? That guys property was kept safe for a puny annual fee of $75.
Congratulations America
The man isn't whining at all. He even said "I've got consequences to deal with now", and they're not angry with the fire fighters either.
But your mind is already made up that he's just an asshole and got what he deserved. We have some town supervisors with that attitude, and they make policy. Welcome to America. Carry your own fire extinguisher, defibrillator, and hand gun. You may need them.
Yeah and his son assaulted members of the FD. And sure enough he got what he deserved; no fire protection after deciding he didn't want to pay for fire protection just like his neighbour.
Congratulations America
How does that old saying go? A lesson lived is a lesson learned. The neighborhood should have been practicing their bucket brigade procedures on a regular basis.
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
Every home should have a working fire extinguisher, in fact, in Florida every renter has to have one. My work has several defibrillators as well.The man isn't whining at all. He even said "I've got consequences to deal with now", and they're not angry with the fire fighters either.
But your mind is already made up that he's just an asshole and got what he deserved. We have some town supervisors with that attitude, and they make policy. Welcome to America. Carry your own fire extinguisher, defibrillator, and hand gun. You may need them.
Its a concept called "taking precautions" and that may or may not include paying to support your not-so-local fire department.
Well, I had a landlord in Cali who threatened to beat me when I asked if we could buy an extinguisher and deduct it from our rent. So I bought one and we still carry it around with us. He was a drunk who lived in the back of the house. We moved out soon thereafter.
Have a link for that?
I think it's dangerous to use FIRE as some punitive threat to get tax dollars. If people don't pay the $75 in advance, the FD could charge $7,500 after a response. There are ways to fund a FD without the attitude of "let the assholes burn".And sure enough he got what he deserved; no fire protection after deciding he didn't want to pay for fire protection just like his neighbour.
Cranick's story sparked a wide-ranging debate across cable news and the Internet.
Radio and TV talk show host Glenn Beck defended the fire department letting Cranick's home burn down.
"If you don't pay your $75 then that hurts the fire department," Beck said in response to the blaze. "They can't use those resources and you would be sponging off of your neighbor's $75 if they put out your neighbor's house and you didn't pay for it."
"As soon as they put out the fire of somebody who didn't pay the $75, no one will pay the $75," he said.
Fellow conservative commentator Daniel Foster, meanwhile, said that he had no problem in principle with the "opt-in government" philosophy behind the decision to withhold fire services to those who hadn't paid the required fee.
Morally, however, the issue was quite different, he wrote in National Review Online:
"But forget the politics: what moral theory allows these firefighters (admittedly acting under orders) to watch this house burn to the ground when 1) they have already responded to the scene; 2) they have the means to stop it ready at hand; 3) they have a reasonable expectation to be compensated for their trouble?"
You didn't read my opening post, did you?
Update:
Fire Fighters Condemn South Fulton’s Decision to Let Home Burn
International Association of Fire Fighters General President Harold Schaitberger today issued the following statement on the September 29 fire in Obion County, Tennessee:
“The decision by the South Fulton Fire Department to allow a family’s home to burn to the ground was incredibly irresponsible. This tragic loss of property was completely avoidable. Because of South Fulton’s pay-to-play policy, fire fighters were ordered to stand and watch a family lose its home.
“Everyone deserves fire protection because providing public safety is among a municipality’s highest priorities.
“Instead, South Fulton wants to charge citizens outside the city for fire protection. We condemn South Fulton’s ill-advised, unsafe policy. Professional, career fire fighters shouldn’t be forced to check a list before running out the door to see which homeowners have paid up. They get in their trucks and go.”
The International Association of Fire Fighters, headquartered in Washington, DC, represents more than 298,000 full-time professional fire fighters and paramedics and is the leading advocate for health and safety of first responders in North America. More information is available at www.iaff.org
Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/2010/10/05...#ixzz11djWWY4t
Also, according to msnbc, the fire chiefs in the 5 surrounding municipalities have wanted to change the rural fire subscription service for years. Their property tax base comes from city residents, even though 80% of their fire calls are to the rural areas. The County Commissioners punted a comprehensive policy (without subscriptions) back to the mayors and fire chiefs, because (wait for it....) they didn't want to create a new tax for rural residents.
Exactly my point, the people who think public services can be offered without taxation need to get some cookies baked of their own dough.
Congratulations America
Backtracking now? You said the homeowner was an asshole and deserved.....those 'cookies'. You even went so far as to pronounce the guy a deadbeat, trying to gouge the community. Because he forgot to pay a bill. And that his son assaulted a firefighter, without any proof or a link. You didn't call the County Commissioners political weasles that couldn't make the right policy choice, by following FD recommendations and creating a true fire tax.
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