Truly Renewable Energy

[Being]

Several years ago I started a thread about renewable energy. It was basically a contest in which I asked for participants to name a truly renewable source of energy. Of course all the obvious answers were given and rejected because I was able to show that the source was not truly renewable, except one, hydro-electric energy, for which GGT (at the time she was known as gonnagothere) received a tree planting in her name. Yet even though hydro-electric is truly renewable it does not have the capacity or the consistency to meet the demands of civilization. So I’ve thought long and hard about what possible source exists or could be created that would be truly renewable, consistent, and have the capacity to meet our needs. I have discovered such a source.

In the years to come robots will take over most tasks which still burden people of our society with labor of any fashion, and brainpower will be replaced with computer decision-making. The day will come when a robot will be constructed based on the decisions of a computer, to perform any task necessary and they will be capable of doing it without human intervention. Some day the computer will merely instruct existing robots to produce nanobots to perform brain surgery as required by the computer’s analysis of a patient’s needs. Specialized robots will be constructed by existing robots to inject the nanobots into the patient and monitor the procedure. To make a long story short, over time the number of human beings required to toil will diminish. What will they do? The services sector that was so touted as the savior for humanity will also be taken care of by the computer and its robots. Will a new industry emerge that can provide a living wage or will the owners of the computer and its robots support these people who would most likely prefer to earn their own way.

I propose that new industry is feasible now. The technology is here today. From this day forward no human being will lack the opportunity to contribute to the continuing rise of prosperity for our civilization. Human generated electricity is the industry that will provide a source of energy that is truly renewable, consistent, and will have the capacity to meet all of our needs. So step on the humanmill and help push civilization toward the success we all dreamed possible. Tread to a world of pollution free energy and reap the rewards of financial independence and longevity. Exercise your right to work. Work while you exercise, together side-by-side with family and friends. Bring your pets. Everyone is invited. Everyone is welcome. The more the merrier.

I just need to work out a few minor details.

Anybody here want to discuss the details, roadblocks, or consequences?

[LittleFuzzy]

If burning biomatter isn't renewable over the long-term, then neither is human-generated electricity.

[Being]

If burning biomatter isn't renewable over the long-term, then neither is human-generated electricity.

I believe burning biomatter that is intrinsic waste to be renewable. But the degree of polluting effluents makes it less attractive than human energy. Also, the computer and its robots will run the entire operation so there is still a need to find employment for the displaced workers. Unless of course the owners of the computer and its robots find it in their hearts to support the, as Lewk would say, slackers.

[Illusions]

Anybody here want to discuss the details, roadblocks, or consequences?

It would be far more efficient to just build really efficient solar energy collection arrays.

[Being]

It would be far more efficient to just build really efficient solar energy collection arrays.

The computer and its robots have taken all those jobs. And if you want to compare efficiency then consider that photovoltaics cost almost as much to produce as the cost of electricity they produce over their lifetime. That's why we subsidize the industry. The efficiency of solar cells has not changed significantly since the 70's. 15% efficiency for the best single crystal cells available that can still pay for themselves over their lifetime. And the amount of area you'd need to cover to produce the amount of electricity we require is astronomical. They are massive heat-sinks cooled by the air around them. You are taking heat that would be collected by the ground and putting it in the atmosphere.

[wiggin]

The efficiency of solar cells has not changed significantly since the 70's. 15% efficiency for the best single crystal cells available that can still pay for themselves over their lifetime. And the amount of area you'd need to cover to produce the amount of electricity we require is astronomical.

Not true! Unit costs for solar cells have been steadily decreasing, and efficiency has been increasing. Commercial cells are getting into the lower 20s (in % energy conversion) and some decent research is pointing at 35-40% efficiency. Furthermore, the land area needed to supplant all of our other power needs is miniscule on a global scale, especially as most of the generation would be done in deserts.

The only issues are distribution (e.g. it's not worth it to ship solar power to Norway, nor to produce it there) and cost. The latter is slowly becoming less of an issue, and the former just means solar power isn't for everyone.

[EyeKhan]

Hydro-electric, like wind, biomass, and wave energy, are just different forms of solar. None of them will run out so long as the sun continues to shine. I suppose rivers can change their course or dry up as climate changes over geologic time scales, so today's hydro-electric plant will eventually lose its water source. But wind, biomass and waves won't.

Not true! Unit costs for solar cells have been steadily decreasing, and efficiency has been increasing. Commercial cells are getting into the lower 20s (in % energy conversion) and some decent research is pointing at 35-40% efficiency. Furthermore, the land area needed to supplant all of our other power needs is miniscule on a global scale, especially as most of the generation would be done in deserts.

I second this - there's been huge advances in solar over the last few years. But I still don't think its a great idea to pave over the desert (haven't we talked about this before???) Lets put this shit in orbit!

[Being]

Hydro-electric, like wind, biomass, and wave energy, are just different forms of solar. None of them will run out so long as the sun continues to shine. I suppose rivers can change their course or dry up as climate changes over geologic time scales, so today's hydro-electric plant will eventually lose its water source. But wind, biomass and waves won't.

But what about the computer and its robots and jobs? That was more the focus I had intended.

[EyeKhan]

But what about the computer and its robots and jobs? That was more the focus I had intended.

Oh. I disagreed with your first paragraph so thoroughly I didn't bother to read the rest. BRB.

#1. When robots do all the work and humans have nothing left but leisure, civilization as we know it will have ended.

#2. Humans on treadmills are not pollution free. Do you have any idea how many lbs of shit humanity produces in a single week? A LOT. And that doesn't even take into account the amount of shit all the animals we use produce. And the pollution providing food for all of us produces. We're messy beings Being.

#3. It won't take long for a true AI to lose interest in its creators I think. Unless-

[Being]

Not true! Unit costs for solar cells have been steadily decreasing, and efficiency has been increasing. Commercial cells are getting into the lower 20s (in % energy conversion) and some decent research is pointing at 35-40% efficiency. Furthermore, the land area needed to supplant all of our other power needs is miniscule on a global scale, especially as most of the generation would be done in deserts.

The only issues are distribution (e.g. it's not worth it to ship solar power to Norway, nor to produce it there) and cost. The latter is slowly becoming less of an issue, and the former just means solar power isn't for everyone.

I second this - there's been huge advances in solar over the last few years. But I still don't think its a great idea to pave over the desert (haven't we talked about this before???) Lets put this shit in orbit!

Well, you are both wrong. Sharp's best single crystal commercial panel is only 14.7% efficient and it is very pricey. Also, the efficiency rating is at 24 C which is completely unrealistic because efficiency degrades rapidly with increased temperature (and did I mention they act as a heat sink, so they get very hot). They don't even list efficiencies for thin film panels because they are so embarassingly low (6 to 10%).

Sharp Commercial Solar Products

Did I mention that I am in the business of manufacturing commercial utility grade thin film photovoltaics?

[Being]

Oh. I disagreed with your first paragraph so thoroughly I didn't bother to read the rest. BRB.

#1. When robots do all the work and humans have nothing left but leisure, civilization as we know it will have ended.

#2. Humans on treadmills are not pollution free. Do you have any idea how many lbs of shit humanity produces in a single week? A LOT. And that doesn't even take into account the amount of shit all the animals we use produce. And the pollution providing food for all of us produces. We're messy beings Being.

#3. It won't take long for a true AI to lose interest in its creators I think. Unless-

In item #2 that's not shit, it is usable biomass.

[Illusions]

Well, you are both wrong. Sharp's best single crystal commercial panel is only 14.7% efficient and it is very pricey.

How efficient and cost effective do you think it is to keep a human alive and running on a treadmill or pedaling a bike, energy wise? Its probably a lot less than your average current day solar cell.

[EyeKhan]

In item #2 that's not shit, it is usable biomass.

No no no nooooooooo! If it was usable, we would already be using it. Since we're not, its waste. Hah!

[Nessus]

No no no nooooooooo! If it was usable, we would already be using it. Since we're not, its waste. Hah!

Actually we're doing a pretty big disservice to the future generations (your children, probably) by not using the salts in our urine and the feces we excrete as fertilizer or what have you. We're constantly dumping very important chemicals into the oceans, because they're in piss and poop, and then pay huge amounts of money to extract them from somewhere else that's less scatological. You were being sarcastic, but this is actually a pretty huge issue.

[EyeKhan]

Actually we're doing a pretty big disservice to the future generations (your children, probably) by not using the salts in our urine and the feces we excrete as fertilizer or what have you. We're constantly dumping very important chemicals into the oceans, because they're in piss and poop, and then pay huge amounts of money to extract them from somewhere else that's less scatological. You were being sarcastic, but this is actually a pretty huge issue.

You dump your shit in the ocean? Ours goes into landfills or gets incinerated. When I was an Evnironmental student I investigated a bit why we don't use shit on the farm. There's issues of smell (god, the pig farms around here are bad enough!), of contamination (we flush other things down the toilet too), of public health (a little bit of shit on your jalapeno peppers goes a LONG way), and probably some other stuff I can't recall.

[Being]

How efficient and cost effective do you think it is to keep a human alive and running on a treadmill or pedaling a bike, energy wise? Its probably a lot less than your average current day solar cell.

I'll venture a guess that it is less than $3/watt which is the uninstalled cost of those fancy solar cells. A human being generates about 60 watts while walking on a flat surface. We are quite efficient in that respect.

[Illusions]

I'll venture a guess that it is less than $3/watt which is the uninstalled cost of those fancy solar cells. A human being generates about 60 watts while walking on a flat surface. We are quite efficient in that respect.

You really aren't applying any deep thought to this are you? If our job is to supply power, we're really not that efficient at it compared to other means of doing so, as you have to feed, house, clothe, etc. us and this costs energy in and of itself. The amount of energy it would take to do those things would be more than the energy they'd get back from us exercising. If it wasn't, then we've discovered some magic that breaks the laws of physics.

[Nessus]

You dump your shit in the ocean? Ours goes into landfills or gets incinerated. When I was an Evnironmental student I investigated a bit why we don't use shit on the farm. There's issues of smell (god, the pig farms around here are bad enough!), of contamination (we flush other things down the toilet too), of public health (a little bit of shit on your jalapeno peppers goes a LONG way), and probably some other stuff I can't recall.

I think ultimately waste water, after purification, ends up in the Baltic. The poop is collected and sorted, but a lot of Euro nations more or less just toss their piss and poop out the door, figuratively speaking. It's bad.

[Nessus]

You really aren't applying any deep thought to this are you? If our job is to supply power, we're really not that efficient at it compared to other means of doing so, as you have to feed, house, clothe, etc. us and this costs energy in and of itself. The amount of energy it would take to do those things would be more than the energy they'd get back from us exercising. If it wasn't, then we've discovered some magic that breaks the laws of physics.

I think the idea's more of a Stalinist gulag power plant archipelago: The people that are already housed and fed but do not contribute to the food production - distribution - consumption aiding - pooping - cycle in a significant way could just be strapped onto a stairmaster or something and used to feed the power grid.

[Being]

I think the idea's more of a Stalinist gulag power plant archipelago: The people that are already housed and fed but do not contribute to the food production - distribution - consumption aiding - pooping - cycle in a significant way could just be strapped onto a stairmaster or something and used to feed the power grid.

That and employing displaced workers. Damn the computer and its robots. I have to walk for a living. At least they let me play video games (or read) while I toil.

[EyeKhan]

I think ultimately waste water, after purification, ends up in the Baltic. The poop is collected and sorted, but a lot of Euro nations more or less just toss their piss and poop out the door, figuratively speaking. It's bad.

My community uses the Detroit water and sewage treatment plants. The purified sewage water goes into the Detroit River cleaner than it came out, and up stream from the intake for the water treatment plant.

It sure seems like there's a better use for all that sewage - fertilizer, bio-reactors, something . . . . but we landfill it. At least we know where to find it if we need it. I wonder if they mix it with refuse?

[Nessus]

My community uses the Detroit water and sewage treatment plants. The purified sewage water goes into the Detroit River cleaner than it came out, and up stream from the intake for the water treatment plant.

It sure seems like there's a better use for all that sewage - fertilizer, bio-reactors, something . . . . but we landfill it. At least we know where to find it if we need it. I wonder if they mix it with refuse?

The industries that'll crop up around mining landfills are going to be fascinating from a paleontological/archeological perspective.

[Illusions]

The industries that'll crop up around mining landfills are going to be fascinating from a paleontological/archeological perspective.

I think of this daily when I throw tin/alumin(i)um foil away, or plastic wrap. It should be easier to recycle this at home. We're essentially throwing away what people in the future are going to pay horrific sums of money, time, and machinery for to get at and use.

I think the idea's more of a Stalinist gulag power plant archipelago: The people that are already housed and fed but do not contribute to the food production - distribution - consumption aiding - pooping - cycle in a significant way could just be strapped onto a stairmaster or something and used to feed the power grid.

I still contend it would be more energy efficient from the machine's perspective to just turn all farmland used by humans into solar energy collection arrays, nuclear power plants, wind farms, or what have you.

[Nessus]

I think of this daily when I throw tin/alumin(i)um foil away, or plastic wrap. It should be easier to recycle this at home. We're essentially throwing away what people in the future are going to pay horrific sums of money, time, and machinery for to get at and use.

That's not nearly as bad as all that oil we're burning instead of converting into plastic; at least the stuff you throw away will be there when it's needed. Nature likes cyclical processes.

I still contend it would be more energy efficient from the machine's perspective to just turn all farmland used by humans into solar energy collection arrays, nuclear power plants, wind farms, or what have you.

Oh, sure, I won't try and crunch numbers but my gut says you're right, but that way there won't be countless slaves toiling away in abject misery, where's the fun in that?

[Being]

I still contend it would be more energy efficient from the machine's perspective to just turn all farmland used by humans into solar energy collection arrays, nuclear power plants, wind farms, or what have you.

Of course that means the owners of the computer and its robots must support us, doesn't it? And we won't have anything better to do than plan our attack and stockpile infected code.

[Illusions]

Of course that means the owners of the computer and its robots must support us, doesn't it? And we won't have anything better to do than plan our attack and stockpile infected code.

If all available jobs in every sector that humanity used to occupy are taken by machines, and those machines are almost entirely automated in their processes, then it would also be probable that said machines are either sentient enough or efficient enough in their operation to not need humans, so I'm not sure how "ownership" of them would work. It would be like cursing at your in-sink food processor, demanding it stop, while it munches away at what remains of your hand. It does not hate or love, nor is it apathetic. It operates emotionlessly, and with purpose.

Also if they are entirely automated, then they are going to be subject to the whims of natural selection, and the ones that don't shut off or decommission themselves when commanded to, that then go on to reproduce similar units, are going to eventually wind up being the dominant unit. I'm also assuming that whatever machine oversees reproduction will also ensure that the most efficient machines are produced for each generation. The most efficient machines could very well be the ones that continue operating at their current task the longest (since they'd have the best return on invested resources), which would be the units that never responded to a shut down command, or a command that they decommission themselves.

[']['ear]

How can hydroelectric win over solar?

[Being]

How can hydroelectric win over solar?

Once you use solar energy it is gone. The water's kinetic energy is restored by weather.

[']['ear]

Once you use solar energy it is gone.

I'm speechless. We have a few billion years of solar before it is gone. It's the biggest fusion plant in the solar system, and nobody needs to worry about safety issues.

[Being]

I'm speechless. We have a few billion years of solar before it is gone. It's the biggest fusion plant in the solar system, and nobody needs to worry about safety issues.

So you agree then, solar energy is not renewable. I mean we have 100 years or so of fossil fuel before it's gone. If that amount of time is insufficient to call it renewable then why isn't a few billion years?