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Thread: "America's economic policy mix is a threat to the world"

  1. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Why are we worried about high inflation? You can't get stagflation without the 'flation' part.
    We aren't worried about high inflation. We are worried about Squanderville.


    I'm about to deliver a warning regarding the U.S. trade deficit and also suggest a remedy for the problem. But first I need to mention two reasons you might want to be skeptical about what I say. To begin, my forecasting record with respect to macroeconomics is far from inspiring. For example, over the past two decades I was excessively fearful of inflation. More to the point at hand, I started way back in 1987 to publicly worry about our mounting trade deficits -- and, as you know, we've not only survived but also thrived. So on the trade front, score at least one "wolf" for me. Nevertheless, I am crying wolf again and this time backing it with Berkshire Hathaway's money. Through the spring of 2002, I had lived nearly 72 years without purchasing a foreign currency. Since then Berkshire has made significant investments in -- and today holds -- several currencies. I won't give you particulars; in fact, it is largely irrelevant which currencies they are. What does matter is the underlying point: To hold other currencies is to believe that the dollar will decline.

    Both as an American and as an investor, I actually hope these commitments prove to be a mistake. Any profits Berkshire might make from currency trading would pale against the losses the company and our shareholders, in other aspects of their lives, would incur from a plunging dollar.

    But as head of Berkshire Hathaway, I am in charge of investing its money in ways that make sense. And my reason for finally putting my money where my mouth has been so long is that our trade deficit has greatly worsened, to the point that our country's "net worth," so to speak, is now being transferred abroad at an alarming rate.

    A perpetuation of this transfer will lead to major trouble. To understand why, take a wildly fanciful trip with me to two isolated, side-by-side islands of equal size, Squanderville and Thriftville. Land is the only capital asset on these islands, and their communities are primitive, needing only food and producing only food. Working eight hours a day, in fact, each inhabitant can produce enough food to sustain himself or herself. And for a long time that's how things go along. On each island everybody works the prescribed eight hours a day, which means that each society is self-sufficient.

    Eventually, though, the industrious citizens of Thriftville decide to do some serious saving and investing, and they start to work 16 hours a day. In this mode they continue to live off the food they produce in eight hours of work but begin exporting an equal amount to their one and only trading outlet, Squanderville.

    The citizens of Squanderville are ecstatic about this turn of events, since they can now live their lives free from toil but eat as well as ever. Oh, yes, there's a quid pro quo -- but to the Squanders, it seems harmless: All that the Thrifts want in exchange for their food is Squanderbonds (which are denominated, naturally, in Squanderbucks).

    Over time Thriftville accumulates an enormous amount of these bonds, which at their core represent claim checks on the future output of Squanderville. A few pundits in Squanderville smell trouble coming. They foresee that for the Squanders both to eat and to pay off -- or simply service -- the debt they're piling up will eventually require them to work more than eight hours a day. But the residents of Squanderville are in no mood to listen to such doomsaying.

    Meanwhile, the citizens of Thriftville begin to get nervous. Just how good, they ask, are the IOUs of a shiftless island? So the Thrifts change strategy: Though they continue to hold some bonds, they sell most of them to Squanderville residents for Squanderbucks and use the proceeds to buy Squanderville land. And eventually the Thrifts own all of Squanderville.

    At that point, the Squanders are forced to deal with an ugly equation: They must now not only return to working eight hours a day in order to eat -- they have nothing left to trade -- but must also work additional hours to service their debt and pay Thriftville rent on the land so imprudently sold. In effect, Squanderville has been colonized by purchase rather than conquest.

    It can be argued, of course, that the present value of the future production that Squanderville must forever ship to Thriftville only equates to the production Thriftville initially gave up and that therefore both have received a fair deal. But since one generation of Squanders gets the free ride and future generations pay in perpetuity for it, there are -- in economist talk -- some pretty dramatic "intergenerational inequities."

    Let's think of it in terms of a family: Imagine that I, Warren Buffett, can get the suppliers of all that I consume in my lifetime to take Buffett family IOUs that are payable, in goods and services and with interest added, by my descendants. This scenario may be viewed as effecting an even trade between the Buffett family unit and its creditors. But the generations of Buffetts following me are not likely to applaud the deal (and, heaven forbid, may even attempt to welsh on it).

    Think again about those islands: Sooner or later the Squanderville government, facing ever greater payments to service debt, would decide to embrace highly inflationary policies -- that is, issue more Squanderbucks to dilute the value of each. After all, the government would reason, those irritating Squanderbonds are simply claims on specific numbers of Squanderbucks, not on bucks of specific value. In short, making Squanderbucks less valuable would ease the island's fiscal pain.

    That prospect is why I, were I a resident of Thriftville, would opt for direct ownership of Squanderville land rather than bonds of the island's government. Most governments find it much harder morally to seize foreign-owned property than they do to dilute the purchasing power of claim checks foreigners hold. Theft by stealth is preferred to theft by force.

    So what does all this island hopping have to do with the U.S.? Simply put, after World War II and up until the early 1970s we operated in the industrious Thriftville style, regularly selling more abroad than we purchased. We concurrently invested our surplus abroad, with the result that our net investment -- that is, our holdings of foreign assets less foreign holdings of U.S. assets -- increased (under methodology, since revised, that the government was then using) from $37 billion in 1950 to $68 billion in 1970. In those days, to sum up, our country's "net worth," viewed in totality, consisted of all the wealth within our borders plus a modest portion of the wealth in the rest of the world.

    Additionally, because the U.S. was in a net ownership position with respect to the rest of the world, we realized net investment income that, piled on top of our trade surplus, became a second source of investable funds. Our fiscal situation was thus similar to that of an individual who was both saving some of his salary and reinvesting the dividends from his existing nest egg.

    In the late 1970s the trade situation reversed, producing deficits that initially ran about 1 percent of GDP. That was hardly serious, particularly because net investment income remained positive. Indeed, with the power of compound interest working for us, our net ownership balance hit its high in 1980 at $360 billion.

    Since then, however, it's been all downhill, with the pace of decline rapidly accelerating in the past five years. Our annual trade deficit now exceeds 4 percent of GDP. Equally ominous, the rest of the world owns a staggering $2.5 trillion more of the U.S. than we own of other countries. Some of this $2.5 trillion is invested in claim checks -- U.S. bonds, both governmental and private -- and some in such assets as property and equity securities.

    In effect, our country has been behaving like an extraordinarily rich family that possesses an immense farm. In order to consume 4 percent more than we produce -- that's the trade deficit -- we have, day by day, been both selling pieces of the farm and increasing the mortgage on what we still own.

    To put the $2.5 trillion of net foreign ownership in perspective, contrast it with the $12 trillion value of publicly owned U.S. stocks or the equal amount of U.S. residential real estate or what I would estimate as a grand total of $50 trillion in national wealth. Those comparisons show that what's already been transferred abroad is meaningful -- in the area, for example, of 5 percent of our national wealth.

    More important, however, is that foreign ownership of our assets will grow at about $500 billion per year at the present trade-deficit level, which means that the deficit will be adding about one percentage point annually to foreigners' net ownership of our national wealth. As that ownership grows, so will the annual net investment income flowing out of this country. That will leave us paying ever-increasing dividends and interest to the world rather than being a net receiver of them, as in the past. We have entered the world of negative compounding -- goodbye pleasure, hello pain.

    We were taught in Economics 101 that countries could not for long sustain large, ever-growing trade deficits. At a point, so it was claimed, the spree of the consumption-happy nation would be braked by currency-rate adjustments and by the unwillingness of creditor countries to accept an endless flow of IOUs from the big spenders. And that's the way it has indeed worked for the rest of the world, as we can see by the abrupt shutoffs of credit that many profligate nations have suffered in recent decades.

    The U.S., however, enjoys special status. In effect, we can behave today as we wish because our past financial behavior was so exemplary -- and because we are so rich. Neither our capacity nor our intention to pay is questioned, and we continue to have a mountain of desirable assets to trade for consumables. In other words, our national credit card allows us to charge truly breathtaking amounts. But that card's credit line is not limitless.

    The time to halt this trading of assets for consumables is now, and I have a plan to suggest for getting it done. My remedy may sound gimmicky, and in truth it is a tariff called by another name. But this is a tariff that retains most free-market virtues, neither protecting specific industries nor punishing specific countries nor encouraging trade wars. This plan would increase our exports and might well lead to increased overall world trade. And it would balance our books without there being a significant decline in the value of the dollar, which I believe is otherwise almost certain to occur.

    We would achieve this balance by issuing what I will call Import Certificates (ICs) to all U.S. exporters in an amount equal to the dollar value of their exports. Each exporter would, in turn, sell the ICs to parties -- either exporters abroad or importers here -- wanting to get goods into the U.S. To import $1 million of goods, for example, an importer would need ICs that were the byproduct of $1 million of exports. The inevitable result: trade balance.

    Because our exports total about $80 billion a month, ICs would be issued in huge, equivalent quantities -- that is, 80 billion certificates a month -- and would surely trade in an exceptionally liquid market. Competition would then determine who among those parties wanting to sell to us would buy the certificates and how much they would pay. (I visualize that the certificates would be issued with a short life, possibly of six months, so that speculators would be discouraged from accumulating them.)

    For illustrative purposes, let's postulate that each IC would sell for 10 cents -- that is, 10 cents per dollar of exports behind them. Other things being equal, this amount would mean a U.S. producer could realize 10 percent more by selling his goods in the export market than by selling them domestically, with the extra 10 percent coming from his sales of ICs.

    In my opinion, many exporters would view this as a reduction in cost, one that would let them cut the prices of their products in international markets. Commodity-type products would particularly encourage this kind of behavior. If aluminum, for example, was selling for 66 cents per pound domestically and ICs were worth 10 percent, domestic aluminum producers could sell for about 60 cents per pound (plus transportation costs) in foreign markets and still earn normal margins. In this scenario, the output of the U.S. would become significantly more competitive and exports would expand. Along the way, the number of jobs would grow.

    Foreigners selling to us, of course, would face tougher economics. But that's a problem they're up against no matter what trade "solution" is adopted -- and make no mistake, a solution must come. (As Herb Stein said, "If something cannot go on forever, it will stop.") In one way the IC approach would give countries selling to us great flexibility, since the plan does not penalize any specific industry or product. In the end, the free market would determine what would be sold in the U.S. and who would sell it. The ICs would determine only the aggregate dollar volume of what was sold.

    To see what would happen to imports, let's look at a car now entering the U.S. at a cost to the importer of $20,000. Under the new plan and the assumption that ICs sell for 10 percent, the importer's cost would rise to $22,000. If demand for the car was exceptionally strong, the importer might manage to pass all of this on to the American consumer. In the usual case, however, competitive forces would take hold, requiring the foreign manufacturer to absorb some, if not all, of the $2,000 IC cost.

    There is no free lunch in the IC plan: It would have certain serious negative consequences for U.S. citizens. Prices of most imported products would increase, and so would the prices of certain competitive products manufactured domestically. The cost of the ICs, either in whole or in part, would therefore typically act as a tax on consumers.

    That is a serious drawback. But there would be drawbacks also to the dollar continuing to lose value or to our increasing tariffs on specific products or instituting quotas on them -- courses of action that in my opinion offer a smaller chance of success. Above all, the pain of higher prices on goods imported today dims beside the pain we will eventually suffer if we drift along and trade away ever larger portions of our country's net worth.

    I believe that ICs would produce, rather promptly, a U.S. trade equilibrium well above present export levels but below present import levels. The certificates would moderately aid all our industries in world competition, even as the free market determined which of them ultimately met the test of "comparative advantage."

    This plan would not be copied by nations that are net exporters, because their ICs would be valueless. Would major exporting countries retaliate in other ways? Would this start another Smoot-Hawley tariff war? Hardly. At the time of Smoot-Hawley we ran an unreasonable trade surplus that we wished to maintain. We now run a damaging deficit that the whole world knows we must correct.

    For decades the world has struggled with a shifting maze of punitive tariffs, export subsidies, quotas, dollar-locked currencies, and the like. Many of these import-inhibiting and export-encouraging devices have long been employed by major exporting countries trying to amass ever larger surpluses -- yet significant trade wars have not erupted. Surely one will not be precipitated by a proposal that simply aims at balancing the books of the world's largest trade debtor. Major exporting countries have behaved quite rationally in the past and they will continue to do so -- though, as always, it may be in their interest to attempt to convince us that they will behave otherwise.

    The likely outcome of an IC plan is that the exporting nations -- after some initial posturing -- will turn their ingenuity to encouraging imports from us. Take the position of China, which today sells us about $140 billion of goods and services annually while purchasing only $25 billion. Were ICs to exist, one course for China would be simply to fill the gap by buying 115 billion certificates annually. But it could alternatively reduce its need for ICs by cutting its exports to the U.S. or by increasing its purchases from us. This last choice would probably be the most palatable for China, and we should wish it to be so.

    If our exports were to increase and the supply of ICs were therefore to be enlarged, their market price would be driven down. Indeed, if our exports expanded sufficiently, ICs would be rendered valueless and the entire plan made moot. Presented with the power to make this happen, important exporting countries might quickly eliminate the mechanisms they now use to inhibit exports from us.

    Were we to install an IC plan, we might opt for some transition years in which we deliberately ran a relatively small deficit, a step that would enable the world to adjust as we gradually got where we need to be. Carrying this plan out, our government could either auction "bonus" ICs every month or simply give them, say, to less-developed countries needing to increase their exports. The latter course would deliver a form of foreign aid likely to be particularly effective and appreciated.

    I will close by reminding you again that I cried wolf once before. In general, the batting average of doomsayers in the U.S. is terrible. Our country has consistently made fools of those who were skeptical about either our economic potential or our resiliency. Many pessimistic seers simply underestimated the dynamism that has allowed us to overcome problems that once seemed ominous. We still have a truly remarkable country and economy.

    But I believe that in the trade deficit we also have a problem that is going to test all of our abilities to find a solution. A gently declining dollar will not provide the answer. True, it would reduce our trade deficit to a degree, but not by enough to halt the outflow of our country's net worth and the resulting growth in our investment-income deficit.

    Perhaps there are other solutions that make more sense than mine. However, wishful thinking -- and its usual companion, thumb sucking -- is not among them. From what I now see, action to halt the rapid outflow of our national wealth is called for, and ICs seem the least painful and most certain way to get the job done. Just keep remembering that this is not a small problem: For example, at the rate at which the rest of the world is now making net investments in the U.S., it could annually buy and sock away nearly 4 percent of our publicly traded stocks. In evaluating business options at Berkshire, my partner, Charles Munger, suggests that we pay close attention to his jocular wish: "All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I'll never go there." Framers of our trade policy should heed this caution -- and steer clear of Squanderville.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  2. #92
    ^
    Bump for you nimrods that refused to read it.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  3. #93
    A) It would lead to massive inflation in the short to medium term, as the prices of import substitutes will be far higher than the prices of imports.
    B) Other countries would retaliate, most likely by putting additional tariffs on American exports. It would also undermine the international trading system, including by us flagrantly violating our obligations to the WTO.
    C) This would distort the market. An artificially high amount of money would go toward import-substitution industries, thereby weakening the competitiveness of our export industries. This would lead to less exports, which would in turn lead to further distortion. Etc.
    D) It would cause massive structural and frictional unemployment. The former due to point C, and the latter due to B.
    E) It ignores the fact that our main import is oil. Oil can't be produced in the US in much greater amounts than we're producing right now.

    I'm not quite sure how this is better than the alternative.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  4. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I'm not quite sure how this is better than the alternative.
    Have you really considered the alternative?

    Meanwhile, the citizens of Thriftville begin to get nervous. Just how good, they ask, are the IOUs of a shiftless island? So the Thrifts change strategy: Though they continue to hold some bonds, they sell most of them to Squanderville residents for Squanderbucks and use the proceeds to buy Squanderville land. And eventually the Thrifts own all of Squanderville.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  5. #95
    I'll take potential collapse a century from now over certain collapse today. Realistically speaking, the best way for us to get rid of the trade deficit is to have China, India, Brazil, and Vietnam (and others) develop rapidly, allowing them to purchase American products. Meanwhile, we should get rid of virtually all trade restrictions and subsidies to make American companies the most competitive in the world when that moment comes.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  6. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I'll take potential collapse a century from now over certain collapse today.
    Of course you will. You won't be here then. Shortsightedness is the bane of Capitalism. And please remember, this is a warning from a premier Capitalist.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  7. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    Of course you will. You won't be here then. Shortsightedness is the bane of Capitalism. And please remember, this is a warning from a premier Capitalist.
    Please tell me the benefit of causing the same disaster today that might or might not happen in the future. Sorry, but just because a problem exists doesn't mean that any asinine solution is preferable to inaction. What you're proposing is the equivalent of gouging out the eyes of someone with worsening eyesight.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  8. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Please tell me the benefit of causing the same disaster today that might or might not happen in the future. Sorry, but just because a problem exists doesn't mean that any asinine solution is preferable to inaction. What you're proposing is the equivalent of gouging out the eyes of someone with worsening eyesight.
    Fine, I can accept your shortsightedness. It is not at all obvious that the U.S. is in decline so why take action?
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  9. #99
    Reading comprehension isn't your specialty, is it?

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    A) It would lead to massive inflation in the short to medium term, as the prices of import substitutes will be far higher than the prices of imports.
    B) Other countries would retaliate, most likely by putting additional tariffs on American exports. It would also undermine the international trading system, including by us flagrantly violating our obligations to the WTO.
    C) This would distort the market. An artificially high amount of money would go toward import-substitution industries, thereby weakening the competitiveness of our export industries. This would lead to less exports, which would in turn lead to further distortion. Etc.
    D) It would cause massive structural and frictional unemployment. The former due to point C, and the latter due to B.
    E) It ignores the fact that our main import is oil. Oil can't be produced in the US in much greater amounts than we're producing right now.

    I'm not quite sure how this is better than the alternative.
    I'm not really certain your arguments are all that strong. What's wrong with the idea is that it's extremely bureaucratic and that it runs the risk of choking off imports the US may not want to do without (how to buy oil if you can't find the exports to offset your buy?)

    Also, what are foreign bondholders going to do with US bonds in such a closed system?
    Congratulations America

  11. #101
    I see as being a more extreme version of the import-substitution strategy employed by most Latin American states and Turkey a few decades back. It didn't work for them, and it sure as hell wouldn't work for us.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  12. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I see as being a more extreme version of the import-substitution strategy employed by most Latin American states and Turkey a few decades back. It didn't work for them, and it sure as hell wouldn't work for us.
    If at first you don't succeed...

    ----------------------------------------------

    Looks like the Fed has stolen my thoughts! Don't they have any original ideas??

    'In fact, some Fed policymakers on Tuesday raised the specter of a permanently higher jobless rate for the U.S. economy, suggesting that many more workers will struggle to get back on their feet even as the economy continues to grow.'

    ...

    'Some Fed policymakers said the long-term jobless rate might rise to nearly 6% from the historical figure of close to 5%, reflecting the view that some of the problems with high unemployment are structural in nature, in which worker skills and employer needs don't match up.

    'With more robots, computers and foreign workers replacing them, "American workers are facing intense competition like they've never seen before," Leamer said.'

    http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...8.story?page=2

    Gloomy Fed employment forecast overshadows upbeat GDP data
    By Don Lee, Los Angeles Times
    November 24, 2010

    The Fed predicts unemployment will remain high for years. The pessimistic outlook comes shortly after the Commerce Department revised third-quarter growth to an annual rate of 2.5%, up from 2%.


    The American economy grew faster in the third quarter this year than previously estimated, but that bit of encouraging news was overshadowed by a grim new forecast from the Federal Reserve that predicted unemployment would remain at about 9% next year and stay high for years to come.

    The pessimistic long-term outlook underscored the possibility that the United States — after years of good times that cast a rosy glow over the American dream and raised personal expectations for the future — may now be headed for a grayer, more financially constricted decade or more.

    Such a development not only carries major political implications but threatens the prospects for millions of ordinary Americans, from young people seeking to start careers and families to older people facing the prospect of seeing their golden years less golden.

    In fact, some Fed policymakers on Tuesday raised the specter of a permanently higher jobless rate for the U.S. economy, suggesting that many more workers will struggle to get back on their feet even as the economy continues to grow.

    The Fed's forecast is an acknowledgment that the "healing process in the economy has slowed to a crawl," said Ethan Harris, an economist at Bank of America Merrill Lynch.

    The central bank's predictions were released Tuesday as part of the minutes of its early November meeting, when the institution also approved its controversial bond-buying program to spur economic growth.

    The nation's unemployment rate has been stuck at 9.6% since August.

    Just a few months ago, Fed officials were more optimistic about the road ahead — for jobs and the overall economy. But now they see the economy growing by about 2.5% this year, not enough to make a dent in unemployment.

    And next year, policymakers said, the economy was likely to increase 3% to 3.6%; their previous forecast in June called for growth of as much as 4.2%.

    The Fed's downgraded outlook was released hours after the government reported that economic growth in the third quarter was slightly higher than previously thought. The Commerce Department revised economic growth upward in the July-to-September period to an annual rate of 2.5%. The earlier estimate had been 2%.

    The GDP revision was an encouraging sign, as gross domestic product, the broadest measure of economic activity, showed a marked improvement from the anemic 1.7% growth rate in the second quarter. Revisions showed stronger gains in consumer spending, exports and business investments.

    Even so, analysts say GDP growth of at least 3% is needed to bring down the jobless figure — and many don't expect the economy to perform that well in the fourth quarter or early next year.

    One major problem is the fading benefits from the Obama administration's $800-billion economic stimulus package passed nearly two years ago. Republicans have attacked the program ever since, and President Obama has avoided calling for a new one.

    Economists also worry that consumer spending may weaken. Confidence remains low, and unemployment benefits, which have helped prop up spending, probably won't be extended by lawmakers, given the new political sensitivity to big government deficits. Hundreds of thousands of jobless workers will see their benefits expire this month.

    But the biggest single drag on growth may be the state of the labor market. Even the more optimistic independent economists say unemployment will decline slowly, starting most likely in the second half of next year.

    "I think momentum will build gradually," said Ken Matheny, a senior economist at Macroeconomic Advisers, a forecasting firm based in St. Louis.

    Analysts said they were encouraged by the continuing strong profits of American businesses. Tuesday's report showed corporate profits jumped 28% in the third quarter from a year earlier to an annualized total of $1.66 trillion. That's a record high and reflects deep cost cutting and increases in demand for goods and services.

    With surging profits, businesses have built up mountains of cash on hand, and their spending for equipment and software rose an upwardly revised 16.8% in the third quarter.


    But thus far, many companies have been reluctant to add workers.

    "The problem is the corporate business leaders don't have a lot of confidence in the economy or in Washington," said Harris, noting that executives remained concerned about tax and other policy uncertainties in Washington.

    Consumer spending, which accounts for about 70% of the American economy, may also be held back as people pay off debts and pull back after years of overconsumption.


    Tuesday's report showed personal incomes and the savings rate were higher than earlier estimates. The U.S. personal saving rate — the share of after-tax income that isn't spent — was 5.8% in the third quarter, in contrast to rates approaching zero just a few years ago.

    Unlike past recoveries, the current one isn't getting any help from the home-building industry, which remains depressed.

    On Tuesday, the National Assn. of Realtors said existing home sales fell 2.2% in October from the prior month and were 26% below their level in October 2009, when sales were being fueled by a tax credit for buyers.

    Michael D. Larson, a housing analyst at Weiss Research, said the figures indicate the market is stagnating because of the high level of unemployment and uncertainty over a jobs recovery.

    The national median price for previously owned homes was $170,500 in October, down 1% from a year earlier. Foreclosures and other distressed properties accounted for 34% of the market last month, compared with 35% in September and 30% last year.

    With the housing market limping along, UCLA economist Ed Leamer doesn't see the economy growing at a robust pace any time soon. He expects the unemployment rate to tick higher in the coming months and believes that even the Fed's more-pessimistic projections for unemployment may be too rosy.

    Some Fed policymakers said the long-term jobless rate might rise to nearly 6% from the historical figure of close to 5%, reflecting the view that some of the problems with high unemployment are structural in nature, in which worker skills and employer needs don't match up.

    With more robots, computers and foreign workers replacing them, "American workers are facing intense competition like they've

    never seen before," Leamer said.

    Growth in U.S. exports may help create more jobs, he said, but that means reversing a decades-long pattern of importing more than exporting.

    In the third quarter, the nation's big trade deficit cut GDP growth by more than half.

    "We're getting demand, but a lot of that demand leaks to foreign producers," he said.

    don.lee@latimes.com

    Times staff writer Alejandro Lazo in Los Angeles contributed to this report.
    Last edited by agamemnus; 11-24-2010 at 04:42 AM.

  13. #103
    You're hardly the first to predict higher structural unemployment. People were saying it in 2008.

  14. #104
    I totally get the argument for structural employment being a serious problem here, but to be honest I think the data is pretty muddled on this one.

    That being said, it's clear that the majority of the unemployment problem nowadays has little to do with structural issues and lots to do with cyclical issues. Of course, that's not a reason to ignore the potential structural problem and think about good reforms that will reduce any structural issues. But fixing cyclical unemployment is the low-hanging policy fruit that is a lot easier to address than nebulous structural issues. First things first, neh?

  15. #105
    According to the Fed, the unemployment rate in 2012 should be around 8%. And every year that the unemployment rate stays up is a year of millions of people becoming less employable. So structural issues do seem to be the bigger concern. I don't really see a concerned effort to deal with it. We can't afford a long-term unemployment rate of 8%.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  16. #106
    And as I said before, U3 and U6 are diverging at an increasing rate. Discouraged workers should be counted.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  17. #107
    Discouraged workers tend to reenter the labor force once the economy picks up (which is why the unemployment rate frequently goes up when the economy starts to heat up).
    Hope is the denial of reality

  18. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    According to the Fed, the unemployment rate in 2012 should be around 8%. And every year that the unemployment rate stays up is a year of millions of people becoming less employable. So structural issues do seem to be the bigger concern. I don't really see a concerned effort to deal with it. We can't afford a long-term unemployment rate of 8%.
    8% is hardly likely to be the steady state value. We're just in one of the deepest bits of unemployment in recent memory, and we have a very slow recovery. The 8% projection for 2012 is still a cyclical factor. Obviously long-term unemployment is bad for worker skills and the like, but I see our most likely structural problems as being very different, largely having to do with changing skill sets rather than degenerating ones.

  19. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    8% is hardly likely to be the steady state value. We're just in one of the deepest bits of unemployment in recent memory, and we have a very slow recovery. The 8% projection for 2012 is still a cyclical factor. Obviously long-term unemployment is bad for worker skills and the like, but I see our most likely structural problems as being very different, largely having to do with changing skill sets rather than degenerating ones.
    We only had 6 years between the last two recessions. By 2012, 3 years since the last recession would have passed. I wouldn't be surprised if we had another recession by 2015. What happens if the unemployment rate is 7% before the recession hits? 8% might be a reasonable unemployment rate during a recession; it's certainly not reasonable 3 years after one.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  20. #110
    Just because we've had a bad cyclical bit of unemployment that is not being adequately addressed (IMO, ideally by some combination of increasing AD and incentive schemes a la payroll tax holidays) doesn't mean it isn't cyclical. Your argument just means our current policies to deal with the unprecedented level of joblessness as a result of the recession are inadequate, not that there's suddenly some deep structural problem that jacked up the trend rate by 2 or 3 percent in the space of a couple of years.

  21. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Just because we've had a bad cyclical bit of unemployment that is not being adequately addressed (IMO, ideally by some combination of increasing AD and incentive schemes a la payroll tax holidays) doesn't mean it isn't cyclical. Your argument just means our current policies to deal with the unprecedented level of joblessness as a result of the recession are inadequate, not that there's suddenly some deep structural problem that jacked up the trend rate by 2 or 3 percent in the space of a couple of years.
    Aren't trade imbalance and debt structural?
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  22. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Just because we've had a bad cyclical bit of unemployment that is not being adequately addressed (IMO, ideally by some combination of increasing AD and incentive schemes a la payroll tax holidays) doesn't mean it isn't cyclical. Your argument just means our current policies to deal with the unprecedented level of joblessness as a result of the recession are inadequate, not that there's suddenly some deep structural problem that jacked up the trend rate by 2 or 3 percent in the space of a couple of years.
    Two issues here:
    A) A lot of the newly unemployed worked for industries that were dying. The recession killed them off. These people aren't going to get new jobs unless they retrain. Most aren't.
    B) Even someone from a good industry who is out of a job for several years becomes virtually unemployable. If you get enough people like that, then you're effectively adding to structural unemployment. I.E. These people will not get jobs even if the economy improves.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  23. #113
    Whose "recent memory" are you guys talking about? I'm older than most of you, lived through the 80s as a young adult, oil embargoes with gas rationing, high inflation, even stagflation. Watched steel turn to rust, grain belt turn to energy belt, the whole nine yards. But we never had unemployment numbers like we do now.

    I'm sure globalization, the information age, and our aging baby boomers has a lot to do with this, but I wouldn't call this a "business cycle". This is structural on the face of it all, and the zits are showing to be more like acne instead of just teen pimples.

  24. #114
    http://www.miseryindex.us/urbymonth.asp

    Between July 1982 and June 1983, the unemployment rate was higher than it is now.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  25. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    B) Even someone from a good industry who is out of a job for several years becomes virtually unemployable. If you get enough people like that, then you're effectively adding to structural unemployment. I.E. These people will not get jobs even if the economy improves.
    I would add to that to say that the structural part of this comes from the fact (?) that being "unemployable" is more about how your resume looks rather than your skills "atrophying" or nonsense like that. I would even further add that this is because of a recent trend -- computer-bots (and human bots) taking over human resources in major companies -- many of those companies that only survive because of their own weight.

  26. #116
    I think the same argument applies here as it does to the college diploma one. HR people assume that there's a good reason why someone didn't work for so long, and that reason is that they weren't good enough. If they're not good enough for other companies, why would they be good enough for this one? Again, HR people don't actually have the time to go through each resume and judge it on its merits. It's certainly unfair, but I'm not sure how this problem can be resolved.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  27. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    http://www.miseryindex.us/urbymonth.asp

    Between July 1982 and June 1983, the unemployment rate was higher than it is now.
    Cool visual graph, I'd not seen a vertical visual quite like that one before.

    Anyway, are you trying to say that one year in the 80's compares to our last two, on the MISERY INDEX?

    FYI, in the early 80's a home mortgage carried around a 12% interest rate, often more. A savings account would yield at least 5% compounded interest. A credit card's interest was tax deductible. Buying undeveloped land was pretty cheap, but farmers were selling acreage like it was candy. That was around when Big Ag started to take off and the family farm couldn't keep up. Building a house was a pretty good "investment". A doctor's office visit was very affordable as cash OOP, penicillin still worked for most bacterial infections, and you could deliver a baby in the hospital with an affordable bill. Those things wouldn't drag you into medical bankruptcy. You could also fill your car with a tank of gas and it didn't mean spending 30 minutes of work at minimum wage.

    All things being relative, it was cheaper to live in the 80's than it is now. You could work at the Galleria Mall as a cashier and still find a nice apartment without a roommate. You could have a modest used car and buy gas, even when cars weren't very fuel efficient. You could pay the phone bill and energy bill, even when energy consumption wasn't very efficient. You could take night college classes and not have to skip meals or seeing the doctor for a malady. The trade-offs weren't so severe.

    But that was then, and this is now.

  28. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I think the same argument applies here as it does to the college diploma one. HR people assume that there's a good reason why someone didn't work for so long, and that reason is that they weren't good enough. If they're not good enough for other companies, why would they be good enough for this one? Again, HR people don't actually have the time to go through each resume and judge it on its merits. It's certainly unfair, but I'm not sure how this problem can be resolved.
    I think it's reasonable to look much less at those people without a college degree, but this other practice is not reasonable or efficient, from a global economic viewpoint. There are two things that could reduce the practice. One is lower unemployment, making the application pool smaller. (a catch-22, there) The other is for governments around the world to encourage small and mid-sized business over larger ones.

    The fundamental problem is that large businesses have economies of scale -- those are sometimes made via marketing or manufacturing, but it seems that more and more companies achieve this by limiting competition in a variety of ways -- buying suppliers or buying buyers, for instance. (brings to mind Comcast buying 51% of NBC) So, when there are few players in a market, HR practices are done on the basis of what is easiest to the HR people, not what brings the company more money. This goes to two facets that the government can regulate -- (1) stock owner rights (forced granting of more rights to minority stock owners), so that the stock owners demand efficiency, and (2) anti-trust regulation.

    Changes in anti-trust aggressiveness by the Obama administration and (if I remember correctly) recently enacted legislation in stock ownership voting rights (or some-such thing) did address both of these issues, but they may both be too weak to be effective in causing any real change.

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