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Thread: Direct Electrical Stimulus To Brain Improves Math Skill

  1. #1

    Default Direct Electrical Stimulus To Brain Improves Math Skill

    Ok this is fun. People get better at math with electrical stimulus to a certain brain region. The best part is its non-invasive, (apparently) harmless, and persts even after six months.

    Can you think of any reason not to do it? If a shop providing this as a treatment opened up down the street, would you do it if the price were low enough? Would it be ethical for your employer to offer it (assuming you work with numbers). Would it be ethical for your employer to insist on it? Would you have your children get the treatment to improve their school work? Could you afford not to when other parents might be doing it (competition is everything)?

    Does this mean anything in a broader context? Like, does it say something about mind vs body, the ethics of skill aquisition via hard work and training vs. artificial means, about being born with talent vs manufacturing talent (an equalizer for the genetically underprivledged), about the existance of the soul?

    Or is it just a curiosity? Or one more opportunity to improve?

    Brain Zaps Improve Math

    by Jennifer Carpenter on 4 November 2010, 12:44 PM | Permanent Link | 0 Comments

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    Numbers game. In a new study, volunteers learned to ascribe value to strange symbols, such as the ones shown here. Credit: Adapted from Kadosh et al., Current Biology, 20 (23 November 2010)



    Need to improve your math skills or do your taxes faster? Try zapping your brain with electricity. Researchers have shown that administering a small electrical charge to the brain may enhance a person's ability to process numbers for up to 6 months. The team says the approach, which it claims is harmless, could one day restore numerical skills in people suffering from degenerative diseases or stroke, and it may even improve the math abilities of the general population.

    The brain's math center appears to be the right side of the parietal lobe, a region that sits beneath the crown of the head. People with injuries to this region have difficulty counting, and it's unusually active in young children learning their 1, 2, 3s. Those findings made Roi Cohen Kadosh, a cognitive neuroscientist at the University of Oxford in the United Kingdom, wonder if stimulating this part of the brain could improve a person's ability to manipulate numbers.

    Cohen Kadosh and colleagues recruited 15 university students and trained them to learn the value of nine made-up symbols, including shapes that looked like triangles and staples (see picture). To replicate what children go through when they first learn numbers, the researchers presented the volunteers with two symbols at a time and asked them which one had a higher value. At first, the volunteers had to guess, because they had never seen the symbols before. But as the training progressed, those volunteers who remembered their correct guesses began to learn the relative value of all nine symbols.

    During 6 days of training, the researchers passed electrical currents into the volunteers' brains. Using a technique called transcranial direct current stimulation (TDCS), the team attached electrodes to the scalps of the volunteers—over the right side of the parietal lobe—and applied a weak electrical current. Each day, five volunteers received a positive current for 20 minutes; five volunteers received a negative current for 20 minutes; and five volunteers received a positive current for 30 seconds. The volunteers usually report just a "tingling sensation" around the electrodes on the scalp, says Cohen Kadosh, who says that he tried out the procedure on himself before subjecting anyone else to it.

    Each training day ended with a type of test known as a numerical Stroop task. In the classic version of the test, volunteers are shown, say, the word "blue" written in red ink and asked to state the color of the ink. Most of us hesitate for a second because we have good reading skills and want to say what we've read—i.e., "blue." (You can try the test for yourself here.) In Cohen Kadosh's version of the test, the volunteers were asked to look at the symbols they had learned—except this time, some of the low-value symbols were written larger than the high-value symbols—and say which of the symbols was larger in size. Students who hesitated were judged to have learned the symbols better than those who did not hesitate.

    Volunteers who had received 20 minutes of positive electric current to their brains per day performed best on the test, the team reports online today in Current Biology. Specifically, they hesitated about twice as long as the group that received only 30 seconds of positive current. Students in the group that received 20 minutes of negative current per day were unable to recognize the symbols at all and didn't respond. The effects of the electrical treatment were retained even 6 months later.

    In addition to improving peoples' numerical skills, electrically stimulating the brain could help patients recover word recognition and motor control after strokes, speculates Cohen Kadosh. And he adds that he sees no reason why this approach can't be used to enhance word and numbers skills in people with normal math or language ability.

    Silke Göbel, a psychologist at the University of York in the United Kingdom, cautions that although the people treated with TDCS may have altered reactions on the Stroop test, the research team has not yet directly shown this improves real-world math skills. "It is not clear whether this effect is really specific to number learning or would generalize to any new stimuli, ... [but] this is obviously an important question for future studies", she says.

    EDIT - I took the Stroop Effect test mentioned above. Its fascinating and personally disappointing at the same time. I was so convinced I could prove myself worthy.
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  2. #2
    Well it looks interesting, but it seems that it has more to do with memorizing and reading then with math.
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
    Well it looks interesting, but it seems that it has more to do with memorizing and reading then with math.
    If I understand it correctly they're trying to simulate learning mathimatical skills/ concepts from scratch as a child would.
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  4. #4
    I have no interest in Kindergarten maths, counting and calculating, higher mathematics are more interesting, for the rest I have computers.
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
    I have no interest in Kindergarten maths, counting and calculating, higher mathematics are more interesting, for the rest I have computers.
    <sigh> Of course. The implication here, still unproven, is that your fundamental ability to learn and perform mathematical thinking at all levels is enhanced. Per the article that still has to be tested, but by focussing on the raw learning ability I believe they hoped they would be testing the affect of the treatment on the subject's most basic 'talent' in math, regardless of what specific mathematics one is working with.
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  6. #6
    Well they might be interested in my brain. I am good at math but bad at calculating

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
    Well they might be interested in my brain. I am good at math but bad at calculating
    I'm not sure I understand.
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  8. #8
    Well, I can neither memorize numbers well nor am I good at calculating things. But give me a calculator or actually just a piece of paper and I am able to solve a good amount of math problems.
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
    Well, I can neither memorize numbers well nor am I good at calculating things. But give me a calculator or actually just a piece of paper and I am able to solve a good amount of math problems.
    Have you ever had a closed head injury, maybe from the hoof of a horse?
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Have you ever had a closed head injury, maybe from the hoof of a horse?
    *twirls moustache*

    Yes, I have...

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    *twirls moustache*

    Yes, I have...
    That explains a lot.
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  12. #12
    If something like this were considered to be safe, I imagine most parents who could afford this would get their kids the treatment.

    I guess my bigger question is whether this is much different than hiring a tutor. A tutor can review materials with you and help you develop strategies to learn. This seems to be a different tactic that helps you learn and recall materials. It's not the same. But it also doesn't strike me as that different. Am I off base?

  13. #13
    Did they have a group in the study that did it without any electrical stimulation? This does sound possible, I don't know the extents of this technique though, they would seem limited to me. I think integrated computer chips are the much more realistic long term foreign brain enhancement. Ultimately I disagree with such bodily enhancements that needlessly alter ourselves by foreign means. That has been my generally philosophy in regards to it, mainly on religious grounds that if our bodies are working as God intended the leave them alone. If you're blind, I believe in the use of technology to fix it. But if you have normal working body parts but you want artificial enhancement, it seems disrespectful to God's intention.. and unless it's needed. Like we're fighting some alien race and need super smart and super strong humans to face them.. I don't agree with it.

    This particular treatment though hits somewhat of a grey area for me, I'll have to contemplate it.. I don't like it much, and i wouldn't be surprised if there are some ramifications to it... but ya i'll need to think about this.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    If something like this were considered to be safe, I imagine most parents who could afford this would get their kids the treatment.

    I guess my bigger question is whether this is much different than hiring a tutor. A tutor can review materials with you and help you develop strategies to learn. This seems to be a different tactic that helps you learn and recall materials. It's not the same. But it also doesn't strike me as that different. Am I off base?
    I think you may be confusing the experimental testing methodology with the treatment. The way I understand it is you get your brain zapped and you have at least 6 months worth of enhanced math ability - no training regimen different than your normal studies.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Lebanese Dragon View Post
    Did they have a group in the study that did it without any electrical stimulation?
    It doesn't sound like they had a control group, which I find a little perplexing.
    Ultimately I disagree with such bodily enhancements that needlessly alter ourselves by foreign means. That has been my generally philosophy in regards to it, mainly on religious grounds that if our bodies are working as God intended the leave them alone.
    Isn't it a bit of pride to believe you know God's intent? The one thing humans have that distinguishes us from animals is our ability to analyze, understand and manipulate the natural world. There is no basis to assume God gave us this ability without the blessing to use it to it's fullest extent.
    .. and unless it's needed. Like we're fighting some alien race and need super smart and super strong humans to face them..
    Fighting an alien race? How about enhancing our brains is the only way we can truly understand God?
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  16. #16
    I do believe in using the gifts God gave us, I also believe that they were intentionally set the way they were. So unless it's out of necessity I view it as an afront to God to change how we naturally are. What i mean is humans naturally can see, and see in color, so if you have a disability that makes you blind then I have no problem using technology so you can see as is the natural order, which God established (aka God's intention). When we start becoming hybrids and morphing our bodies through technology, which will happen, I have no doubt of that. I have no intention to sway the logical evolution of humanity. I'm just saying God gave me these strengths as is, and I don't need a Mechanical arm to give me super strenght, or computer chips to make me super smart. Unless it becomes a necessity, like i'm going to die unless I do this... then I Think we should uphold and use the gifts God gave us as he gave them to us. I realize that's not going to change anything, eventually these implants will go to the wealthy and the world is all going to be effed up for a long time, until there is mass produced cheaper versions for the masses. And through competition in society it's going to happen it'll give us the edge. I believe that will happen if we live long enough. I don't like that thought and I find it a disgrace as to what God gave us.

    I'm not saying if you're born crippled and not being able to walk, or with a faulty heart you can't get an artificial one, in those cases they are necessities, and in addition God intended for our hearts to beat, for us to be able to see etc... I want to stay true to the gifts God gave us.

    This moral issue i'll likely not have to deal with in my life time, and for many morally it will be a non-issue.

    In essence, it's violating God's natural order... this treatment is more of a grey area for me, verse the other examples I gave, I really haven't made up my mind on it. I dislike it, but that's all I have to say about this electric therapy.


    As for understanding God, I don't increased intellect has any real bearing on understanding God. I think ultimately there are just unanswerable questions for us, and that the important ones we can understand.
    Last edited by Lebanese Dragon; 11-06-2010 at 06:53 PM.

  17. #17
    God did not design our brain so that once we understood neuroscience and electricity we could increase our mental abilities? Is this an accident, then? Something God didn't want to happen? Did God make a mistake? Or is God testing us with more forbidden fruit? And if so, how do you know?
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    It doesn't sound like they had a control group, which I find a little perplexing.
    Can we assume that direct electrical stimulus is not positively correlated with experimental rigour?
    There's a man goin' 'round, takin' names
    And he decides who to free and who to blame

  19. #19
    God made humans how they are, this is the natural order he made. That's why i say God intended for us to be this way, because he made this way. I don't plan to deviate from that unless it is of necessity. I haven't thought about this for a long time, but that stance is what I've had for a long time. I Think there are biblical passages that would support this line of thought as well.

    If it's between dying or becoming some sort of cyborg, I'd go the cyborg route. I see you're view, and I don't think the fact we can think it up or that we can do it is enough to justify that God wants us to do it, or that by any moral standards it is okay. I'm sure you can list plenty yourself we shouldn't use. That's my view luckily in my lifetime there will likely be nothing to do deal with. But I agree with everyone here that this WILL be a significant part of our future.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Lebanese Dragon View Post
    God made humans how they are, this is the natural order he made.
    YES! And one very fundamental characteristic of humanity is the ability to study, understand, and make changes to the natural world, including our own bodies. This is how we were made, and unless you think God made us without intending for us to act on the nature He gave us, then you have nothing beyond your personal prejudice to base your disapproval on.

    Humanity and the world we were placed in are anything but static and unchanging. Humanity has been emerging, becoming, improving, bettering ourselves since the Beginning and if there is a God with a Plan, then human progress must be at it's heart. To argue otherwise is to completely reject all observed reality in every discipline of science and the humanities.
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  21. #21
    YES! And one very fundamental characteristic of humanity is the ability to study, understand, and make changes to the natural world, including our own bodies
    So you say, I would exclude the last one. It's interesting to see where this electrical current dealio will take us. I'm undecided on what I think about it morally.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Lebanese Dragon View Post
    So you say, I would exclude the last one. It's interesting to see where this electrical current dealio will take us. I'm undecided on what I think about it morally.
    Why??? Do you have some reason to believe your body is somehow separate from the rest of God's creation?
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  23. #23
    Non-invasive, huh. Does that justification work for ECT, too?

    Maybe one day there'll be a brain enhancement implant, much like a cardiac pacemaker. I'd be better to test it first on adults, assuming they can give full and informed consent. That might eliminate those with brain diseases and dementia, but eventually those folks might benefit the most.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Have you ever had a closed head injury, maybe from the hoof of a horse?
    No, but there is a big difference between simple calculation and higher math. One is mostly memorizing and practice, the other is based on logical thinking and understanding.
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
    No, but there is a big difference between simple calculation and higher math. One is mostly memorizing and practice, the other is based on logical thinking and understanding.
    It's cognitive neuro-science. They combined math (new symbols) with other things for their study. Stroop test relied on vision, color identification, language, and memory. Cognition is in there, too. Need to have a concept of colors and words in order to do their math. Math has been called a language unto itself, but it's hard to study it in young brains (or damaged brains) that have undeveloped or limited language/verbal centers.

    I didn't read the whole thing too closely, but they used 15 university students, trying to "replicate" a child's learning mind. Pretty damn small sample size, pretty big jump in conclusions. But choobie seems obsessed with math and brains lately.

  26. #26
    This is an interesting study no doubt, but it wouldn't really benefit anyone except students as everything else can be done on calculators. Math is my worst subject though, so I wouldn't mind

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Non-invasive, huh. Does that justification work for ECT, too?

    Maybe one day there'll be a brain enhancement implant, much like a cardiac pacemaker. I'd be better to test it first on adults, assuming they can give full and informed consent. That might eliminate those with brain diseases and dementia, but eventually those folks might benefit the most.
    no.
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  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
    No, but there is a big difference between simple calculation and higher math. One is mostly memorizing and practice, the other is based on logical thinking and understanding.
    EJ I was joking dammit all!
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  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Knux897 View Post
    This is an interesting study no doubt, but it wouldn't really benefit anyone except students as everything else can be done on calculators. Math is my worst subject though, so I wouldn't mind
    Meat and potatoes math can crop up in the work place more than you think and it can be stuff you need more than a spreadsheet to puzzle out.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

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