Time to demand Israelification? :o

[Wraith]

Do you think continued attacks on the transportation infrastructure will continue to cause nationwide closures? I understand how flights can get messed up with major hubs getting attacked, but thats mainly a regional thing.

I'd hope not, but I've lost faith that people will do the rational thing instead of the politcally expedient thing.

Take the expenses it took to pull off something like 9/11, now spread it out over the nation. A pickup ready to blow and a driver per mall. Simultaneous attacks in everyone's back yard. Thats will mess a population up.

There wasn't too much in the way of expenses there, from what I know. It's probably a lot harder to get a pickup that can make a decent explosion than it was to board the planes on 9/11. Bombstuffs are regulated and scrutinized. It's difficult to get a good sized bomb going in the US without the feds finding out about it.

How would Americans react to something like this? Something that challenges their way of spending and gratification. How far would they allow security to strip away rights like the TSA is doing before shopping centers become a bain instead of a pleasure?

First one: IMO they might shop a bit differently, some would do more stuff online, but that was coming anyways and the vast majority wouldn't change their behaviors for very long. Second one: too far.

[LittleFuzzy]

Which is a bit surprising to be honest. You'd expect shopping malls in the US to be at least as attractive a target as any shopping mall in Turkey. Yet it is only in Turkey that everybody has to go through security before he can enter. Same with all government buildings, police stations and at one point even places like Burger King and McDonald's in central Istanbul would use those hand scanners.

In all probability, this sort of international terrorism would probably have seen a few more successes if it were that flexible in its targeting. By its nature, however, it isn't all that flexible. There really needs to be significant penetration in the population of the target before it develops the ability or the inclination to branch out.

Also, strategically, making isolated attacks on shopping malls is not particularly effective. Any individual shopping mall has a relatively high population density and consequently a high impact at the time of attack *presumably* but both will fall off very quickly after the attack. People will simply avoid the site. That requires alternative options of course but in the West, there almost always are such alternatives. Lasting impact is very localized. When you strike planes in mid-air, or the transportation hub in Madrid, the impact is more lasting. People still get funneled through the site, they won't feel like they're able to evade potential danger. To create the effect striking at shopping malls, you need many more attacks, which requires a lot more attackers. The second Intifadah or the terrorism which made up a major part of the Algerian War are good examples of this.

[Hazir]

Only in Turkey?!

Ok, some other countries too, but I wasn't talking about those.

I don't really see how people could avoid places in high density population areas for an extended time. In Istanbul the attacks on Neve Shalom and the British Consulate were right in the city centre. The HSBC headquarters were in the middle of the business district. After a while the debris is cleared, the windows are repaired, as is other damage and life goes back to normal. But it's not like you ever forget what happened there. Maybe it's that you are used to a different type of terrorism so far. But in the end all it takes is a crazy person not caring about losing his life while destroying 'the enemy' and a bunch of bystanders. Two weeks ago we had one of those 500 meters from my Istanbul home. Ronald heard the explosion while he was having breakfast. His comment; I knew it was a bomb, but it didn't sound like a big one'.

[Being]

So now, terrorists only need to dress like a pilot to get through screening.

T.S.A. Grants Pilots an Exception to Screenings

On Friday, the Transportation Security Administration announced that it would let uniformed airline pilots skip the screenings, reversing an earlier policy that everyone had to go through the screenings as part of the agency’s efforts to prevent terrorist attacks. Pilots who are traveling out of uniform or not on official business will still be subject to searches, the agency said.

I wonder how long it will be before passengers catch on and start dressing like pilots.

[Ominous Gamer]

Thanks to people like Frank Abagnale, its a little harder nowadays to impersonate a pilot.

[Loki]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_yemen_al_qaida_claim I wonder if other groups decide to imitate these tactics.

[Hazir]

What would be new to that besides the fact that the US isn't used to it ?

[Loki]

Because terrorists have been trying to carry out high profile attacks against the US before. Those attacks might cause a lot of damage, but are easier to prevent. If they go for this kind of strategy, it's inevitable that some attacks will succeed.

[GGT]

"Inevitable that some attacks will succeed" Well, of course they will. Is anyone convinced we have a comprehensive (or rational) Homeland Security? I'm not.

We've got TSA treating the American flying public as if 100% are potential terrorists, but they don't screen 100% of baggage, let alone incoming international passengers or cargo. We keep buying stuff with 'free shipping', and hundreds of cargo containers sit at our ports. Random searches with some dog sniffers.

We also don't have any kind of security system for Amtrak, Greyhound, cruise ships or subways. Potential targets are endless. TSA spends about $8 Billion a year, but a $4k bomb can get close enough to cause a panic. Even our intelligence gathering looks kind of mickey mouse. (Negotiations in Afghanistan with a fake terrorist? Wow.)

Glad I'm not flying (or using public transit) this holiday. Wanna bet how many terrorists are chuckling at us from their caves?

[Loki]

It doesn't matter what kind of a homeland security plan we have. Small scale attacks are impossible to prevent consistently. All it takes is one semi-educated person putting some chemicals together and blowing himself up at a mall or at a bus/train station. Or just buy one of the many illicit guns on the street and go on a shooting rampage. Killing ~5-10 people wouldn't be particularly hard.

[GGT]

It doesn't matter what kind of a homeland security plan we have. Small scale attacks are impossible to prevent consistently. All it takes is one semi-educated person putting some chemicals together and blowing himself up at a mall or at a bus/train station. Or just buy one of the many illicit guns on the street and go on a shooting rampage. Killing ~5-10 people wouldn't be particularly hard.

Agreed. Makes the whole body-scanning and pat-down from TSA look stupid. One car bomb in an airport parking garage, one suicide bomber walking up to airport security lines....damage done. Remember the shopping mall scares a while ago? Even prank bomb threats can cause us to freak out, evacuate, hunker down. We routinely get 'crazies' going Postal, at schools or universities, fast food places or businesses.

Really, killing hundreds of innocents in one fell swoop wouldn't be very hard at all. Terrorist or not. We still need to have some kind of Homeland Security, we just can't decide what or how.

[Loki]

I'm consistently amazed at how incompetent terrorists are. If they put some thought into it, they could undermine the American economy without carrying out a single major attack.

[GGT]

I'm consistently amazed at how incompetent terrorists are. If they put some thought into it, they could undermine the American economy without carrying out a single major attack.

Or maybe our slow demise was part of their plan? Death by 1,000 cuts, cuts to our own throats. Create fear and paranoia, watch us spend billions and fritter resources, cripple capitalism by chasing an enigma. Seems pretty effective so far, so who's incompetent?

[Being]

Don't forget flooding Europe with their unemployed.

[Flixy]

I'm consistently amazed at how incompetent terrorists are. If they put some thought into it, they could undermine the American economy without carrying out a single major attack.

That's what I usually think, too. It can't be that hard, can it?

[Loki]

Or maybe our slow demise was part of their plan? Death by 1,000 cuts, cuts to our own throats. Create fear and paranoia, watch us spend billions and fritter resources, cripple capitalism by chasing an enigma. Seems pretty effective so far, so who's incompetent?

And what exactly would they gain from that? Their main objective is to force America to butt out of the Middle East. Making it slightly more inconvenient for Americans to travel doesn't exactly meet that objective. Their actions have a minimal economic cost, and haven't really affected the behavior of the American people. You seem to be under the illusion that anything that inconveniences you makes the terrorists happy. I'm fairly sure they want to do more than make you paranoid.

That's what I usually think, too. It can't be that hard, can it?

Their track record suggests that their Western recruits are too cowardly (all talk) or too incompetent to carry out anything approaching a successful terrorist attack. 9/11 made it much harder for foreign terrorists to enter the US, and all the ones in the US seem to be in the lowest quintile of IQ scores.

[GGT]

And what exactly would they gain from that? Their main objective is to force America to butt out of the Middle East. Making it slightly more inconvenient for Americans to travel doesn't exactly meet that objective. Their actions have a minimal economic cost, and haven't really affected the behavior of the American people. You seem to be under the illusion that anything that inconveniences you makes the terrorists happy. I'm fairly sure they want to do more than make you paranoid.

Their objective is to get us to butt out of the Middle East, AND to kill the infidel beast as they see it --- capitalism, our economy, our ideas about freedom. $8 billion to TSA, to fight a $4K printer cartridge bomb, and so it goes. Using our paranoia seems effective so far. It's got the UK putting CCTV everywhere, everyone leery of immigrants, Islamaphobia at an all time high, and the US groping kids and grannies crotches at the airport.

[Loki]

Their objective is to get us to butt out of the Middle East, AND to kill the infidel beast as they see it --- capitalism, our economy, our ideas about freedom. $8 billion to TSA, to fight a $4K printer cartridge bomb, and so it goes. Using our paranoia seems effective so far. It's got the UK putting CCTV everywhere, everyone leery of immigrants, Islamaphobia at an all time high, and the US groping kids and grannies crotches at the airport.

You're projecting here. The terrorists aren't evil-doers who are just trying to make life miserable for infidels. They have concrete objectives and are trying to achieve these objectives. They don't give a damn about capitalism, our ideas, or our freedom. It's the kind of bogus crap that Americans come up with to justify treating the terrorists as illogical nihilists (which they are not).

Ooh, a whole $8 billion out of a GDP of $13 trillion (and of course it won't actually decrease GDP, because that money is staying in the US economy). That's going to make a real difference.

[GGT]

You're projecting here. The terrorists aren't evil-doers who are just trying to make life miserable for infidels. They have concrete objectives and are trying to achieve these objectives. They don't give a damn about capitalism, our ideas, or our freedom. It's the kind of bogus crap that Americans come up with to justify treating the terrorists as illogical nihilists (which they are not).

Ooh, a whole $8 billion out of a GDP of $13 trillion (and of course it won't actually decrease GDP, because that money is staying in the US economy). That's going to make a real difference.

Of course I'm "projecting". Consider it my own little op-ed. We could argue ad nauseum about terrorists' general motive and specific objectives. I think we're doin' it wrong by hanging onto our interventionist Super Power military attitude, and paying way too much attention to the wrong places and people.

Go ahead, call me a nationalist or protectionist, I don't mind. Defense is important, protecting allies is important. But being the world's main police force just isn't wise or even sustainable. And a war on terror is about as vague and over-reaching as a war on drugs.