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Thread: Dystopian Nightmare of Nationalized Healthcare

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    Default Dystopian Nightmare of Nationalized Healthcare

    From an article in this week's New Yorker about Tuburculosis in India that has a stunning observation yet fails to connect it to the potential failure of nationalized medicine.

    Since late 2009, the hospital has had one unique asset: a piece of equipment called a P.C.R., which can multiply tiny samples of DNA and analyze them. The device is not as fast as the GeneXpert, but it can examine the genetics of virtually any organism, including tuberculosis. The hospital’s machine, which was purchased with money from a government research grant, has never been used. “The hospital has had this for months,’’ Mannan said. “But nobody knows how it works.” We were standing at the door of the virology lab, where the new P.C.R. Cobas TaqMan 48, made by Roche and sold for roughly fifty thousand dollars, was resting on a shelf, still wrapped in its shipping material.

    How could that be? I was staring at a machine that could alter, even save, the lives of scores of the people who were sitting nearby in the gathering heat. Mannan said nothing, though his anger was palpable. “Ask them,’’ he said, referring to the scientists who worked in the hospital, when I tried to get him to explain. “They will tell you.”

    We walked down the hall to meet Ravindra Prasad, a doctor in the department of social medicine. He was an agreeable man with a round face and an easy manner. I asked why the P.C.R. machine sat imprisoned and unused.

    “The chemical kit expired,’’ he said, smiling politely. The chemicals used in the machine have a short shelf life; but I learned later that they are not hard to replace. That couldn’t have been the reason. “The methods we have for diagnosing tuberculosis all function smoothly,” Prasad added, as if he were reading from a prepared statement. He was referring to sputum tests, which are often inaccurate. “We follow the standard manual.” Prasad offered us tea, but said nothing more about the medical needs of his patients. “It’s a nice lab,’’ Mannan said when we left. “Beautiful, actually. But if the doctors used it properly that would interfere with their private practice.”

    I asked what he meant.

    “It is simple,’’ he said. “If patients are treated at the hospital, they won’t need to pay for anything else.”

    The Darbhanga medical red-light district lies just a few blocks from the main hospital. On most days, as the public clinics prepare to take their last patients, touts appear in the waiting rooms and on the hospital grounds, eager to steer people toward a private doctor on Hospital Road. More than eighty per cent of medical services in India are in private hands, and health-care costs are among the most common reasons for bankruptcy.

    The touts—equal parts salesmen, psychologists, and pimps—are good at their job. If you need TB medication or a test or an X-ray, these men will get you quickly to a clinic that charges for services people are entitled to receive at no cost in public hospitals. According to Mannan, the tout receives ten per cent of any eventual fee from a referral. Rickshaw drivers get five per cent, medical assistants ten, and the referring doctor, almost always a physician based at the Medical College Hospital, thirty-five per cent. That leaves forty per cent for the clinician.

    Much of the time, the referring physician from the public hospital is also the private clinician who does the work. That earns him seventy-five per cent of any fee. Public salaries are not sufficient to support most doctors, so, every afternoon, many of the hospital’s physicians work in these private clinics.

    Well-trained doctors are not the only people working on Hospital Road, however. Officially, a doctor needs a license to practice medicine in India. In fact, though, there are no mechanisms to verify the validity of licenses or to punish people who break the law. It is not rare for “doctors” to lack medical training completely.

    We arrived as darkness began to fall; hundreds of people, having finished the workday, crowded the rutted streets. There were dozens of drug shops, with names like Raj Medical Agency, Krishna Scientific and Surgical Works, and Zar Whole Sale Drugs—often illuminated by a single bulb. The streets of the medical red-light district are filled with “specialists.” Mannan and I wandered into a back alley where two men asked after our health with more solicitousness than was necessary. I asked what they were offering, and one of them let out a loud cackle.

    “Let me show you,’’ he said, and led us to a small room with several chairs, a table, and three refrigerators. The man said that his name was Pranay, and he offered a variety of blood tests, for liver function, kidney function, H.I.V., and several other standard diagnostics, all at reasonable prices. Wholesalers make their money through volume sales, not high prices. “We get twenty-five to thirty referrals a day,’’ he told me.

    The stall next door could have been an exhibit in a science museum: it contained an ancient X-ray machine, held together with duct tape and baling wire. The owner had just finished taking chest slides for a middle-aged man. He didn’t offer any of the customary lead shields or other protections against possible radiation leaks—and that machine certainly leaked. “It’s safe,’’ the man said. “They are X-rays.”

    He told us that he ran about fifteen to twenty chest X-rays a day; he charges a hundred rupees for each, or a little more than two dollars. His services were also available for broken bones and other routine problems. I asked how he had acquired his equipment and where he had learned to use it. He told us that he had taken the X-ray machine from a hospital in Bihar that was about to throw it away. The idea of training made him laugh. “Did you see ‘Slumdog Millionaire’?” he said. “Before this, I was a chai wallah’’—a man who serves tea—“just like that kid.”

    It was time to return to Patna; driving late at night on the roads of rural India is a risky business. Before we left, though, Mannan insisted that we make one more stop, at another clinic nearby. The place was essentially an open concrete garage; against one wall stood a small table with hot plates on which patients could heat rice. The room was full, and more than a dozen people stood on the street, waiting to get in. “This is the best TB clinic in town,’’ a pharmacist who owned the shop next door explained.

    The head of the clinic, Dr. P. M. Srivastav, works at Medical College Hospital, and we had spoken with him earlier. At night, for a hundred and thirty rupees, Srivastav will see anyone who waits in line. He doesn’t test for tuberculosis at his clinic, and said that he refers people he suspects of having the disease to the hospital. He does, however, earn a fee from every patient he sees, including those he sends back to the hospital for free treatment. “Now do you understand why that machine is wrapped in plastic?” Mannan asked.

    As we were about to leave, a large car pulled up at the front door. Srivastav climbed out of the back seat, looked at us with surprise, and smiled sheepishly. Before I had a chance to ask a question, he was gone, safely tucked away in his private office.

    Read more http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...#ixzz151oaHUYR

  2. #2
    Sounds like people using a freeeee unfettered market to provide a service and make a profit. What's the complaint?

  3. #3
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    To trot out India as an example for anything borders on dishonesty.
    Congratulations America

  4. #4
    I've heard similar stories about Greece. Then again, that's not your typical Western country either.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    To trot out India as an example for anything borders on dishonesty.
    Fair point. But to me this serves as an extreme corner case that is nonetheless very real for a billion people. Doctors feel they are are underpaid by a sprawling bureaucracy guaranteeing care. So they set up alternative medical practices, which turn out to be the only ones that can actually work effectively (albeit in a sea of illegitimate, harmful private practices).

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    Greek doctors typically have two sources of income; one in the form of their official fees and a second in the form of their under the table extras that are the only way to get decent healthcare in that country.
    Congratulations America

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Fair point. But to me this serves as an extreme corner case that is nonetheless very real for a billion people. Doctors feel they are are underpaid by a sprawling bureaucracy guaranteeing care. So they set up alternative medical practices, which turn out to be the only ones that can actually work effectively (albeit in a sea of illegitimate, harmful private practices).
    As if a third world country like India ever had the means to create even the semblance of socialized healthcare. Even if it worked flawless and unbureaucratic then still there would have been a vastly bigger private alternative. For the simple reason there is no way the state could collect the needed funds and not choke the entire economy out of existence.
    Congratulations America

  8. #8
    Uh, I can't speak for that particular circumstance, but running real-time PCR is very expensive. You need custom TaqMan probes (as opposed to the cheaper SYBR system, which still costs an arm and a leg for reagents but can have nonspecific amplification) which don't come cheaply - and you need modest training to run the assay, too. The fixed cost of the machine is a lot, yes, but the marginal cost is nothing to sneer at.

    We ran into this problem a few years back with trying to bring modernized HIV treatment to the developing world. Viral load tests (to follow treatment and check for mutations) require real-time RT-PCR, which normally runs about $100 a test commercially - way outside the range of developing countries. PCR is simply not a cheap technique, though it is certainly far superior to most others in terms of specificity and sensitivity.

    I don't doubt that the shadow health economy the author describes exist, I just question whether the foil for his article - namely, the unused PCR system - is a good one.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Greek doctors typically have two sources of income; one in the form of their official fees and a second in the form of their under the table extras that are the only way to get decent healthcare in that country.
    Yes, that's what I'm referring to. If you need any kind of a real treatment, you end up having to go private.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  10. #10
    You don't need sophisticated PCR to diagnose Tb.

  11. #11
    True, but PCR is a better and faster test, not to mention more specific. That's all. Gold standard diagnostics for Tb would almost certainly use real time PCR or a similar variant; I imagine speed and specificity are the most important here (compared to culturing a sputum sample or some antibody test). The only problem is that it isn't cheaper.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    True, but PCR is a better and faster test, not to mention more specific. That's all. Gold standard diagnostics for Tb would almost certainly use real time PCR or a similar variant; I imagine speed and specificity are the most important here (compared to culturing a sputum sample or some antibody test). The only problem is that it isn't cheaper.
    Then you try and link that with Dread's OP:

    From an article in this week's New Yorker about Tuburculosis in India that has a stunning observation yet fails to connect it to the potential failure of nationalized medicine.
    We're talking about 2 billion people needing Tb screening and treatment. PCR is the last thing they need.

  13. #13
    India has 2 billion people now? Is that a 50-year projection as well?

  14. #14
    I'm not sure. Is 1,188,479,000 close enough? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India

  15. #15
    Depends if you consider exaggerating by 68% to be "close enough." The bigger point here is I don't get why people refuse to fact check very easy to locate information instead of making outrageous (or simply wrong) claims.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Depends if you consider exaggerating by 68% to be "close enough." The bigger point here is I don't get why people refuse to fact check very easy to locate information instead of making outrageous (or simply wrong) claims.
    The "very easy to locate information" is about Tb. Even the US has a hard time tracking and treating Tb. You know, the greatest country on earth with the best health care system? Multiply our population two-fold (on the low end that would mean a country with six hundred million people) without the same first world infrastructure. I'm sure you have a number for the number of people who fall between the cracks. And how many people each individual infects.

    You have all these numbers, isn't that right, Loki?

    *Maybe Dread's number of ONE billion people makes the whole thing look simpler, huh.
    Last edited by GGT; 11-12-2010 at 04:55 AM. Reason: *

  17. #17
    Remind me how that's relevant to you making up the India population number? Or do you think there's something wrong with calling you out for providing grossly incorrect information (which is more relevant to the topic at hand than Lewk's ability to differentiate between "than" and "then")?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Remind me how that's relevant to you making up the India population number? Or do you think there's something wrong with calling you out for providing grossly incorrect information (which is more relevant to the topic at hand than Lewk's ability to differentiate between "than" and "then")?
    Sure, right after you admit you don't know a damn thing about Tb.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    We're talking about 2 billion people needing Tb screening and treatment. PCR is the last thing they need.
    Covering that many people, isn't a faster process actually somewhere above "the last thing they need"?
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Covering that many people, isn't a faster process actually somewhere above "the last thing they need"?
    Well, I was wrong on India's population. I rounded up instead of down, so it's more like one billion people.

    And no, for that number of people they won't benefit from PCR. A simple skin test can give a + or - result within 48 hours, and they can see that on their own.


    *Hasn't anyone here had a Tb skin test? Not a tine test or the mantoux test? Really?
    Last edited by GGT; 11-12-2010 at 05:32 AM. Reason: *

  21. #21
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Don't need one since I already had TB
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    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Don't need one since I already had TB
    You did? Wow, that sounds rare for a guy your age, in a first world nation. How were you exposed, and did you exhibit any symptoms?

  23. #23
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    You did? Wow, that sounds rare for a guy your age, in a first world nation. How were you exposed, and did you exhibit any symptoms?
    Symptoms: Near death at age of 6 months Honestly, I was pretty ill and the doctors didn't know what was wrong. My parents had already taken me home.
    Diagnosis only followed after they did the TB skin test in school and discovered that I possessed the antibodies without ever having been vaccinated

    Since then I always have to explain why I'm positive without vaccination, usually followed by a chest x-ray "just to be sure".
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Symptoms: Near death at age of 6 months Honestly, I was pretty ill and the doctors didn't know what was wrong. My parents had already taken me home.
    Diagnosis only followed after they did the TB skin test in school and discovered that I possessed the antibodies without ever having been vaccinated

    Since then I always have to explain why I'm positive without vaccination, usually followed by a chest x-ray "just to be sure".
    Someone was a carrier in your family, or how did that work? Sorry if I sound nosey but did you have any lung damage that does show on xray?

    Has anyone looked into your Tb and kidney stones?

  25. #25
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Someone was a carrier in your family, or how did that work? Sorry if I sound nosey but did you have any lung damage that does show on xray?

    Has anyone looked into your Tb and kidney stones?
    We don't know where that came from. Lung damage, there's none, luckily enough. And kidney stones and TBC are not correlated, the stones I probably inherited from my mother, she has similar problems.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  26. #26
    Yes, I saw this article Dread. You know what my gut response was? What a perfect illustration of the power of federal funding of transformational science and market execution of said science. The tuberculosis screening device developed is based on generations of federal funding, but a company got to the execution phase and in developing it very well for applications. Beautiful!

    Actually, allow me to share my REAL gut response. I read the first paragraph, and then turned to my wife, saying "why do I think that the crux of the article is right here?"

    Every afternoon at about four, a slight woman named Runi slips out of the cramped, airless room that she shares with her husband and their sixteen children.
    Be afraid. We should all be very afraid.

  27. #27
    India's birthrate is declining fortunately, though it will obviously take a long time for those issues born of overcrowding, poverty and migration to shake out.

    And I don't deny the powerful role federal funding has in research. But it's clear that the execution of said science clearly break down. India has promised full healthcare and built a massive bureaucracy to deliver it, yet it's entirely unable to. The best doctor's feel under compensated, so they simply start side practices. And if this was cracked-down on, it would go even further underground or the doctors would simply move.

    Government funding helps make big bets on research that we all benefit from. That doesn't mean it understands the simple incentives that have been distorted in India.

  28. #28
    India has an impressive history of corruption and venality, one that dwarfs that of the US.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by ']['ear View Post
    India has an impressive history of corruption and venality, one that dwarfs that of the US.
    Of course they do, they learned from the best...the British.
    Last edited by Being; 11-13-2010 at 09:18 PM.
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  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    India's birthrate is declining fortunately, though it will obviously take a long time for those issues born of overcrowding, poverty and migration to shake out.

    And I don't deny the powerful role federal funding has in research. But it's clear that the execution of said science clearly break down. India has promised full healthcare and built a massive bureaucracy to deliver it, yet it's entirely unable to. The best doctor's feel under compensated, so they simply start side practices. And if this was cracked-down on, it would go even further underground or the doctors would simply move.

    Government funding helps make big bets on research that we all benefit from. That doesn't mean it understands the simple incentives that have been distorted in India.
    Their population and overcrowding is part of their Tb problem, though. It's not that a national health care goal is inherently bad, or their use of science has broken down. It'd make more sense to have a public health policy to focus on slums, ghettos, bad air quality, poor sanitation, where infectious diseases run rampant....than buying PCR machines. Or a government crack down on kick-back "clinics", corruption from doctors, and people practicing "medicine" without a license.

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