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Thread: Education in the US

  1. #1

    Default Education in the US

    When I came to Washington in 1988, the cold war was ending and the hot beat was national security and the State Department. If I were a cub reporter today, I’d still want to be covering the epicenter of national security — but that would be the Education Department. President Obama got this one exactly right when he said that whoever “out-educates us today is going to out-compete us tomorrow.” The bad news is that for years now we’ve been getting out-educated. The good news is that cities, states and the federal government are all fighting back. But have no illusions. We’re in a hole.

    Here are few data points that the secretary of education, Arne Duncan, offered in a Nov. 4 speech: “One-quarter of U.S. high school students drop out or fail to graduate on time. Almost one million students leave our schools for the streets each year. ... One of the more unusual and sobering press conferences I participated in last year was the release of a report by a group of top retired generals and admirals. Here was the stunning conclusion of their report: 75 percent of young Americans, between the ages of 17 to 24, are unable to enlist in the military today because they have failed to graduate from high school, have a criminal record, or are physically unfit.” America’s youth are now tied for ninth in the world in college attainment.

    “Other folks have passed us by, and we’re paying a huge price for that economically,” added Duncan in an interview. “Incremental change isn’t going to get us where we need to go. We’ve got to be much more ambitious. We’ve got to be disruptive. You can’t keep doing the same stuff and expect different results.”

    Duncan, with bipartisan support, has begun several initiatives to energize reform — particularly his Race to the Top competition with federal dollars going to states with the most innovative reforms to achieve the highest standards. Maybe his biggest push, though, is to raise the status of the teaching profession. Why?

    Tony Wagner, the Harvard-based education expert and author of “The Global Achievement Gap,” explains it this way. There are three basic skills that students need if they want to thrive in a knowledge economy: the ability to do critical thinking and problem-solving; the ability to communicate effectively; and the ability to collaborate.

    If you look at the countries leading the pack in the tests that measure these skills (like Finland and Denmark), one thing stands out: they insist that their teachers come from the top one-third of their college graduating classes. As Wagner put it, “They took teaching from an assembly-line job to a knowledge-worker’s job. They have invested massively in how they recruit, train and support teachers, to attract and retain the best.”

    Duncan disputes the notion that teachers’ unions will always resist such changes. He points to the new “breakthrough” contracts in Washington, D.C., New Haven and Hillsborough County, Fla., where teachers have embraced higher performance standards in return for higher pay for the best performers.
    “We have to reward excellence,” he said. “We’ve been scared in education to talk about excellence. We treated everyone like interchangeable widgets. Just throw a kid in a class and throw a teacher in a class.” This ignored the variation between teachers who were changing students’ lives, and those who were not. “If you’re doing a great job with students,” he said, “we can’t pay you enough.”

    That is why Duncan is starting a “national teacher campaign” to recruit new talent. “We have to systemically create the environment and the incentives where people want to come into the profession. Three countries that outperform us — Singapore, South Korea, Finland — don’t let anyone teach who doesn’t come from the top third of their graduating class. And in South Korea, they refer to their teachers as ‘nation builders.’ ”

    Duncan’s view is that challenging teachers to rise to new levels — by using student achievement data in calculating salaries, by increasing competition through innovation and charters — is not anti-teacher. It’s taking the profession much more seriously and elevating it to where it should be. There are 3.2 million active teachers in America today. In the next decade, half (the baby boomers) will retire. How we recruit, train, support, evaluate and compensate their successors “is going to shape public education for the next 30 years,” said Duncan. We have to get this right.

    Wagner thinks we should create a West Point for teachers: “We need a new National Education Academy, modeled after our military academies, to raise the status of the profession and to support the R.& D. that is essential for reinventing teaching, learning and assessment in the 21st century.”
    All good ideas, but if we want better teachers we also need better parents — parents who turn off the TV and video games, make sure homework is completed, encourage reading and elevate learning as the most important life skill. The more we demand from teachers the more we have to demand from students and parents. That’s the Contract for America that will truly ensure our national security.
    From the NY Times.

    On one hand, I do take delight in the idea that Americans are stupid and kept in their own ignorance like an aged cheese, because that makes Finnish education know-how all the more valuable. But on the purely humanitarian aspect, it does seem like a worthwhile prospect to lift US kids from their McLives.

    This is something Loki and I have talked about to death, but anyone else have opinions?
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  2. #2
    All good ideas, but if we want better teachers we also need better parents — parents who turn off the TV and video games, make sure homework is completed, encourage reading and elevate learning as the most important life skill. The more we demand from teachers the more we have to demand from students and parents. That’s the Contract for America that will truly ensure our national security.
    That's our weakest link. We'll throw loads of money at teachers, but neglect students' home life, and ignore their parents. We have a strange compartmentalization about families, maybe it's denial.

  3. #3
    Teaching should be a high-paid, competitive and merit-based job. Right now the high-paid part is often true, but not always.

    That said, I think the statistics mask what's actually a certain inequality. We do "raise" an enormous crop of very high-potential kids here. But not enough, and too many of them are from very similar backgrounds.

  4. #4
    From the article:

    Duncan disputes the notion that teachers’ unions will always resist such changes. He points to the new “breakthrough” contracts in Washington, D.C., New Haven and Hillsborough County, Fla., where teachers have embraced higher performance standards in return for higher pay for the best performers.
    These cases are exceptions. By far most teacher's unions are opposed to merit based pay. Hell most of them are opposed to any kind of independent examination of student performance (ie standardized tests).

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    are opposed to any kind of independent examination of student performance (ie standardized tests).
    Not really, but I understand how you can draw such an incorrect conclusion since standardized testing is shoved down their throats without the students' abilities or concerns being taken into account.

    Shocking I know, the concept that teachers push back against unqualified bureaucrats trying to do someone else's job.

  6. #6
    Ya, standardized testing to me seems to go against the whole concept of teaching-that people are unique individuals and learn at different paces. And some people, no matter how hard you try, just aren't going to be able to succeed in every area. And you end up with schools cheating, claiming kids are special needs or absent in order to make their pass rate higher (happened in my area).

    It's bad enough when the books teachers use to teach have incorrect information in them. That due to standardized testing, you have a strict schedule to go by, so no varying off the path to give students more time on a subject. Regurgitation is all you learn, not the concept behind it.

    Throw in kids who live in a broken home, no one to make sure they are fed and doing homework, and it's a real mess.

    The good teachers end up disenchanted after years of dealing with administrators who don't care, kids who don't care or are violent to them, and parents who make excuses for their hellions.

    The other teachers end up hanging on for the benefits and retirement package.

    Yes, it would be nice to have some sort of merit-base pay but I fear that in the hands of administrators it will end up office politics and just as fucked up as standardized tests are.

    EDIT: And in some states it is merit-based, though often a formality as teachers are usually just given their annual increase. Though in VA I think there is a rule regarding unions, because some of our cities did not receive increases in teacher salaries and even some layoffs occurred.

  7. #7
    I stopped reading when the guy said he wanted to raise the status of the teaching profession. There are bajillions of people out there who want to teach and can't find a job, so maybe a tad early?

    I love "fix the symptom" people.

    And again, stop the baby train.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    I stopped reading when the guy said he wanted to raise the status of the teaching profession. There are bajillions of people out there who want to teach and can't find a job, so maybe a tad early?
    Well, when people look at countries with more successful education systems, they notice that teachers aren't treated like pariahs. So that's a good place to start, eh?

  9. #9
    During my college days, the El-Ed majors weren't a very impressive group, and their curriculum seemed pretty simple.

  10. #10
    That's an understatement. Everyplace I've been Education is a major one bare level above those used by big-time Division I athletes.

  11. #11
    Are we now just figuring out that American education sucks?

    On another note, my county is stupid as fuck. The county is more concerned with funds than actual education.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Knux897 View Post
    Are we now just figuring out that American education sucks?
    No, but fixing it seems to be beyond the scope of US minds. Feynman was ranting about this in the 70s, 80s? And it's only gotten worse.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  13. #13
    Obviously I do think the unions are a major stumbling block. But I am heartened by the professional quality of my friends who have done Teach for America and stayed in education, usually moving to a charter or private school. I think that says that the kind of social elevation of teacher that Duncan talks about is very much possible, but we need to repeal NCLB and seriously re-jigger/demolish the bureaucratic behemoths behind education.

  14. #14
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Would I be incorrect in noting that education has not improved since the Department of Education was created and all that money was spent?
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

  15. #15
    Spin it let's begin it. Angel_Mapper's Avatar
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    Are you sure teachers are the problem? It's not that we're stupid here, we're stupid and PROUD of it.
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    To have said goodbye to things!

  16. #16
    It is almost heresy to say it right now here in the U.K., what with English students recently taking to the streets in protest at the government's proposal to raise tuition fees to no less than £6,000 a year (just under $10,000) for some domestic enrollees, but the fact remains that, by U.S. standards, universities across England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland remain a "cheap" place to get an education.

    Tuition fees in the U.K. vary from institution to institution, and also from region to region, but the cost for an overseas undergraduate at University of St. Andrews, in Scotland, for the academic year 2009-2010 would be about $19,000.

    And if you're lucky enough to be able to claim "home" or "European Union" status, this figure would be just shy of $3,000 a year—though it is set to triple or even quadruple from 2012 onward for some institutions south of the Scottish border under the British coalition government's aggressive overhauls to higher-education funding.

    Even to study in the University of Oxford's hallowed halls would cost a U.S. student just over $20,000 for an undergraduate program of study. (The fee would be about $4,700 for a U.K. student.)

    Every college that features in the top 20 of the U.S. News and World Report's most recent ranking of best U.S. colleges costs at least $34,000 a year for tuition and fees. Most, in fact, are closer to $40,000 a year, and quite a few top that level.
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000..._WSJ_US_News_6


    When they say Finland and Denmark insist their teachers come from the top 1/3 of their college graduating classes, does that include Education Majors?

  17. #17
    I don't know what the Hell an Education Major would do besides teach other educators and do education research; you have to either major in one subject and minor in another one in addition to the ed major studies in your Master's, or do a comprehensive multi-subject teacher's major package thingamabob, and I think that one only lets you teach lower grades and not specific subjects. And the major studies they do in their given subject are taught by the respective departments, not some special Education major lecturers.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  18. #18
    I think an Education major is fine for teaching elementary school. You don't need much specialized knowledge to teach 6-10 year-olds. What students are that age, it's more important to know how to teach than to know the intricacies of an academic field. Of course the problem is these Education majors are teaching serious classes in high school. We also have such a severe shortage of math and science teachers that it's not unusual to have teachers with absolutely no background in those areas teaching those classes. I think a bigger problem is the attitude of students and their parents toward school. Students don't want to work hard (that's not unique to Americans), but their parents consistently take their side when they end up failing. Teachers end up passing bad students purely because they don't want to get into fights with their parents. There's also the whole issue of math, which Americans think is "hard", and parents are all too happy to have their children give up on math because "Johnny isn't good at math". Then you throw in the attitude problems of students, especially from poor areas, the usual problems created by a large bureaucracy, and the tenure system for teachers, and it's amazing we're doing as well as we are.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  19. #19
    That's a lot of generalities squeezed into one paragraph.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  20. #20
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    I think over here you can take an education-aimed master's degree after you have your bachelor's degree in the field you want to teach. There are also bachelor's that teach you to become a teacher in a specific subject, but then you're only allowed to educate the first couple of years in high schools. So that sounds like it's the same as in Finland, roughly.

    Any teaching in college is done by the departments themselves.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    From the NY Times

    On one hand, I do take delight in the idea that Americans are stupid and kept in their own ignorance like an aged cheese, because that makes Finnish education know-how all the more valuable. But on the purely humanitarian aspect, it does seem like a worthwhile prospect to lift US kids from their McLives.

    This is something Loki and I have talked about to death, but anyone else have opinions?
    Opions? Hail yah.

    #1. You are nasty.

    #2. As far as I can tell, the more important factor is the parents. Teachers are secondary. Not unimportant, but not as important.

    #3. The education my children are getting from the Public school system is vastly better than the private education I got. (I live in a much better school district, though)

    #4. I did much better in school than my older siblings who went Public but I wonder, was that because my school was better or was it because my parents saw the train-wreck in progress of my older siblings and knew they had to make a change? And in my family anything my parents spent money on was something that got their attention. They were very intersted in my grades, my attendance, my homework because they were paying for it out of pocket.
    Last edited by EyeKhan; 12-01-2010 at 05:01 PM.
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  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    During my college days, the El-Ed majors weren't a very impressive group, and their curriculum seemed pretty simple.
    Quote Originally Posted by ']['ear View Post
    That's an understatement. Everyplace I've been Education is a major one bare level above those used by big-time Division I athletes.
    I recall thinking of education majors as second tier in ability and ambition.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Angel_Mapper View Post
    Are you sure teachers are the problem? It's not that we're stupid here, we're stupid and PROUD of it.
    That's just the conservatives.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    I recall thinking of education majors as second tier in ability and ambition.
    http://www.millersville.edu/academic...on/mission.php

    One of our universities "known" for degrees in education. (Their mission statement page has punctuation errors. ) They include Wellness and Sports Sciences in the School of Education, for athletic trainers and coaches.....ugh

    Nessie, there aren't schools like this in Finland?

  25. #25
    How many institutions of higher learning do you think we have?
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  26. #26
    Few things I wanted to mention.

    In America teachers aren't seen, aren't trained, aren't treated, like end point educators. They are facilitators of learning. In a perfect world this is a great way to allow one teacher to manage 20-30 students as they starve to fulfil their craving for knowledge. The American teacher is meant to present the information, rudimentary ways to work out solutions to reach the answer, and direct any wayward students back on track if they get themselves hopelessly lost.
    Sadly this teaching concept, which I have a strong love for, doesn't work in the US atmosphere.
    It requires students to be happy in school, to want to attend class, to want to learn. Instead kids hate school, they have to go through pat downs, metal detectors, dress codes before even getting in a classroom. We have gay students that are tricked by the staff into attending fake proms so that they wont attend the real one with their samesex date. We have adminstration spying on children through their laptops.
    It requires the students to be active in the classroom (related to their education). Instead we've got kids more worried about mating, football, cheerleading, and which students are banging which teachers.
    It requires parents to be active in their children's homework. Instead we got parents who want to opt out of biology classes because of evolution, we even have a banned books list.
    It requires adminstration that is supportive of their teachers. Instead we have career chases and political wannabes. We have decision makers who cave at the first complaint. We have an atmosphere of sue happy parents and school systems that can't afford to defend themselves.

    We have a system full of teachers that are forced to teach towards tests, about tests, and only for tests. We have teachers that are forced to handhold every child through every step of every problem. We have schools full of children who scream bloody murder when a word problem appears.

    People complain about teachers not being firm with students. Its because they can't be firm. Teacher turnover this current generation is horrible; burnout, brick walls, no support. Teachers teach on egg shells, and the ones that push back get let go before they get the school sued or mess up the superintendents political dreams.

    People complain about the union (which I hate), because it makes it to hard to fire a teacher. That same union also protects our dying breed of oldschool teachers that made class hell yet promising, difficult yet fulfilling. Users like Lewk want the union gone so its easier to get rid of bad teachers, but does anyone honestly believe that is whats going to happen? No, instead we'll end up getting rid of the teachers that piss off the most parents, or the parents who want to make the most noise.

    In American education all the wrong people are given the ability to make all the wrong decisions. Teachers have little room and even less time to maneuver in order to reach their students.

    As for their college curriculum, its not end of term paper heavy or time intensive hard. It involves a lot of hands on experience, even for the 1st year students. Every semester I was in a different school or classroom. There are papers to write sure (lots of papers), but they aren't hard because (at least for me), the subjects were important and directly related to how I wanted to teach, and how its worked out previously. How high should a high school math teacher go compared to the classes a high school teacher can teach? How about an English or History teacher? How much time are they expected to spend learning subjects they may never reach, and how much of this can they only get from college and not from career building camps?
    Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 12-01-2010 at 05:47 PM.

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    How many institutions of higher learning do you think we have?
    Was just asking! Within our larger universities, we have schools and colleges, like departments:

    College of Arts and Sciences
    Jacobs School of Music
    Kelley School of Business
    Maurer School of Law
    School of Education
    School of Health, Physical Education, and Recreation
    School of Informatics and Computing
    School of Journalism
    School of Library and Information Science
    School of Nursing
    School of Optometry
    School of Public and Environmental Affairs
    School of Social Work
    University Graduate School
    Full list of schools and departments

  28. #28
    OG, I was piddling around .edu sites. This one's from Indiana University's Office of Teacher Education:

    "Our teacher education programs prepare our graduates to be leaders in helping bring about thoughtful, creative and dynamic changes in the workplace of teaching and in the communities they serve."

    http://education.indiana.edu/strongT...7/Default.aspx


    YOU ARE HERE: IU > Bloomington > School of Education > Why Teach?

    Office of Teacher Education

    Why Teach?

    There are jobs! We place nearly 90 percent of all students from the Teacher Education Program into teaching jobs during the first year after receiving their degrees.
    Options for getting a teaching license: See Pathways to Teaching.

  29. #29
    The empty promise of college should be saved for another thread, but what exactly are you reaching for with your advertising example?

  30. #30
    Huh? I was replying to your post about teachers.

    In America teachers aren't seen, aren't trained, aren't treated, like end point educators. They are facilitators of learning. In a perfect world this is a great way to allow one teacher to manage 20-30 students as they starve to fulfil their craving for knowledge. The American teacher is meant to present the information, rudimentary ways to work out solutions to reach the answer, and direct any wayward students back on track if they get themselves hopelessly lost.
    Sadly this teaching concept, which I have a strong love for, doesn't work in the US atmosphere.
    Yet go to university sites, and see their stated goals and missions. Lead change in the workplace of teaching! THERE ARE JOBS!


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