Prostitution

[GGT]

Serious question, but not fodder for D & D.

My ex used to joke about "prostituting" himself as a young architect, when he'd drive to the capitol, stand in line for hours, just to be paid for stamping Labor and Industry drawings. It was a great hourly rate that only a professional and registered architect or engineer could get. He only had to do it for a while, until he was established as a professional. (Irony noted.)


I know some young women are content to be trophy wives for older men with money and lavish life styles.

I know some will trade humiliation and subservience in exchange for "security", maybe even justify that as a way to get ahead. A sense of victimhood is always lurking underneath that, though.

How do people rationalize that kind of thing, year after year?

Everyone has a different idea about what it means to "whore" for money or security. What is yours?

[oldmunchkin]

IMO, a prostitute is a person (male or female) who exchanges sex for the sole purpose of being paid. Kind of like any job really, when you think about it. You trade a service (your occupational skills) for money.

[GGT]

IMO, a prostitute is a person (male or female) who exchanges sex for the sole purpose of being paid. Kind of like any job really, when you think about it. You trade a service (your occupational skills) for money.

Are you sure you want to post in this thread, munchie?

[oldmunchkin]

You seem to think that, since I have more than one male friend who gives me money, that makes me a whore?! I guess you also think that any man who ever gives a woman money...for any reason...is guilty of solicitation? Did it seriously never occur to you that someone can have friends who help them out, financially, just because they are friends? It has nothing whatsoever to do with sex!

[GGT]

You seem to think that, since I have more than one male friend who gives me money, that makes me a whore?! I guess you also think that any man who ever gives a woman money...for any reason...is guilty of solicitation? Did it seriously never occur to you that someone can have friends who help them out, financially, just because they are friends? It has nothing whatsoever to do with sex!

Wow. This thread wasn't meant to be about you. You didn't even have to post here, as far as I'm concerned.

During these hard economic times, I've been reading lots of things about what people will do, how far they will go, to pay rent or feed their family. There's a degree of humility involved, lowering their standards for jobs, applying for public aid, when desperation comes calling. Even divorce rates have gone down, and couples are living at opposite ends of the same house, because divorce is too expensive.

If you want to discuss "self prostitution" here, your input may be illuminating. You've been married and divorced a few times. You've stayed in bad marriages because you felt trapped. You even posted in public about your most recent and current relationships, and the things you "tolerate" because you're destitute and desperate. Frankly, I don't get it.....

[oldmunchkin]

Wow. This thread wasn't meant to be about you. You didn't even have to post here, as far as I'm concerned.

Uh huh! Whatever you say!

During these hard economic times, I've been reading lots of things about what people will do, how far they will go, to pay rent or feed their family. There's a degree of humility involved, lowering their standards for jobs, applying for public aid, when desperation comes calling. Even divorce rates have gone down, and couples are living at opposite ends of the same house, because divorce is too expensive.

I fail to see why any job would be humiliating. Even flipping burgers at McD's is better than no job if you have kids to feed! I never did understand the whole "this job is beneath me" mindset. Public assistance, along with food banks and second-hand stores, have become another part of that same mindset. If you need the help, and it's there to help people, then you should use it if you need to. I am not an advocate of generational welfare and the like, but I do believe if the assistance is used as it's meant to be used, it's a great helping-up/out tool.

If you want to discuss "self prostitution" here, your input may be illuminating. You've been married and divorced a few times. You've stayed in bad marriages because you felt trapped. You even posted in public about your most recent and current relationships, and the things you "tolerate" because you're destitute and desperate. Frankly, I don't get it.....

Feeling trapped is a whole different animal than staying for money. Maybe I do "tolerate" a lot more than many people, simply because I am tired of fighting my way out. Oh yeah, I suppose that's wrong too.

[GGT]

Humility does not mean humiliating.

[Crowheart]

Are you attaching a negative quality to prostituting/whoring as used here?

Maybe that's why I'm having trouble forming a reply.
I'm not seeing a negative quality in any of the examples, and it's hard to speculate on how they rationalize it when I wonder why they need to.

I see people exchanging something for something..*shrug*
I don't see how that's bad, even for the more extreme trophy wife example, where it's for profit.
In fact, I don't see a difference between the trophy wife, and me going to work and receiving a paycheck in return...well, other than she has been vastly more successful than me.

Correct me if I'm getting trapped in the semantics though.

[GGT]

Back on topic, though. Personally, it would feel humiliating (to me) to stay with a man who expected me to have sex with him (and cook and clean, or raise the kids or whatever), in exchange for food and shelter. As if that's my role in life, and I should be happy with that. That's a pretty old stereotype of the subservient little woman. I can see why "feminism" took a long time to make headways in that sense.

Western women in civilized society look at women in other cultures, and cringe at what they face. Russian or Asian mail-order brides, imported sex slaves; poor and uneducated women cloistered in houses wearing burkas, so desperate they'll light themselves on fire. Yet, in our very midst are women who feel trapped and pimped out by their mates. It just looks prettier.

Men have a prostitute/whore feeling, too. But beyond the professional kind (like my ex) I don't really know what that means.....a stretch of my imagination might include politicians. Do they feel like whores when they "sell themselves" or "buy legitimacy and power"?

[GGT]

Are you attaching a negative quality to prostituting/whoring as used here?

Yeah. Not just a sexual sense, but a violation of self integrity sense. The kind of thing that makes one feel dirty and used. Something to be avoided, because it's ugly and painful in hindsight.

Trying not to get hung up on the semantics, when words are used.

[termite]

Are you attaching a negative quality to prostituting/whoring as used here?

Maybe that's why I'm having trouble forming a reply.
I'm not seeing a negative quality in any of the examples, and it's hard to speculate on how they rationalize it when I wonder why they need to.

I see people exchanging something for something..*shrug*
I don't see how that's bad, even for the more extreme trophy wife example, where it's for profit.
In fact, I don't see a difference between the trophy wife, and me going to work and receiving a paycheck in return...well, other than she has been vastly more successful than me.

Correct me if I'm getting trapped in the semantics though.

It's a morality thing.

I tend to agree though, if a service is provided for money under voluntary conditions then let it be. However, if someone is forced into the act then somebody needs to do jail time.

[GGT]

It is a morality thing! But morality....eh...what is that?!

This kind of thing has been gnawing at me for a while. Who's a whore, who's the pimp? It's obviously a power principle.

<A man named Wendell Potter used to be an executive for Cigna, a huge insurance company. He used to "pimp" for his employer, to the point of collusion and dirty tactics. Not sure when, but he had an internal moral argument and decided to become a whistle blower. He testified before congress about the ways powerful insurance companies were basically bullies, trying to manipulate congress and markets and consumer sentiment. I heard he wrote a book recently, but haven't read it. I got the impression he went from feeling like the "pimp" to the "whore", and once that line was crossed he couldn't go back. It's a philosophical concept, in the end, about power and victimhood.>

[Catgrrl]

I guess the difference would be in some of the situations you described, those women don't have choices. They have to do this to survive.

Not saying it doesn't happen here, but usually women in America choose to seek out the rich old guy. Rather than have to have a profession. Or maybe that is their profession.

And hey, if the rich old dude is okay with being used in such a way, no harm done I guess.

I'm no trophy wife, but I chose to be the homemaker and my husband the breadwinner. But I do love him, so it's not the same. That being said, I'd go back to work tomorrow if we needed the money. I don't mind taking a night shift job stocking shelves if it keeps the lights on.

And I'd apply for assistance if we were desperate. But not just because we could qualify for it (we don't now). And I'd make sure to get back off assistance as soon as we were back on our feet. I hate people who milk a system just because the paperwork hasn't caught up to them.

[GGT]

cat, that's why I asked munchkin if she really wanted to post in this thread. She has choices, she's not stuck in a third world country, but she does keep acting like a victim of XY or Z. To justify her cyclical bad choices? I don't know.....

The semantics come into play; who's a whored out victim, what does humiliation mean? Who's a pimp or abusive power person, what does exploitation mean?

[Hazir]

I don't even know if this thread is really about prostitution at all. To me it seems more like a thread about dignity where selling sex is used as a metaphore for indignity.

[GGT]

I don't even know if this thread is really about prostitution at all. To me it seems more like a thread about dignity where selling sex is used as a metaphore for indignity.

Perhaps. Besides wondering if politicians might feel like whores for selling out on principles (or pimps for acting like power hungry sociopaths), I wonder if gay/lesbian soldiers in the US military feel like they've been pimped out by DADT?

I used the term Prostitution for a reason, because of how we all see that word differently, in context. Would you have read this mess of a thread if the title was "Is Your Dignity For Sale" or "Can Your Identity Be Bought"?

[Hazir]

Probably yes, for the simple reason that I don't see prostitution as such as a big deal. The only beef I have with it that you sell your soul rather than your dignity with it. I have this idea that most people who wind up in prostitution have reasons for it well beyond the money.

[GGT]

Probably yes, for the simple reason that I don't see prostitution as such as a big deal.

Sorry for my Americanism. "Prostitute" is kind of a neutral term for a Dutchie, I suppose.

The only beef I have with it that you sell your soul rather than your dignity with it.

Hell, don't complicate this with more semantics like soul!

I have this idea that most people who wind up in prostitution have reasons for it well beyond the money.

I suspect that's true. I've heard some strippers claim they feel empowered by stripping, and it wasn't about being a nudist or making money. I've also heard some sluts claim they feel empowered by having sex with pretty much anyone that breathes, and it wasn't about pleasure or expecting money in exchange. I've known some corporate types that feel they sold their souls for things like prestige and money, but it had nothing to do with ethics.

[Dreadnaught]

You seemed to be mentioning something specific, GGT.

[GGT]

Everyone has a different idea about what it means to "whore" for money or security. What is yours?

That was as specific and non-specific as I meant this thread to be.....



.....but to be honest, it was chatting with munchkin that "inspired" the thread. We weren't communicating effectively, and I wanted to know how others define these things. Victimhood, identity, dignity, desperation, empowerment/power, prostitution. I've been told I just don't understand these things. My ex inferred that, and munchkin agreed. But they come from different perspectives and rationale. Educate me.

[Loki]

Do you need to keep on starting threads whose main purpose seems to be to demean Munchkin?

[GGT]

Do you need to keep on starting threads whose main purpose seems to be to demean Munchkin?

Do you need to keep telling me how wrong I am about everything? What other threads have I started meant to demean munchkin? Do you even know what she and I were chatting about, or that she knew I was going to start this thread? Do you even know why I asked if she wanted to post in it, because it wasn't really "about" her?

[GGT]

Anything else you care to add before we go to sleep, Loki? Maybe you've felt exploited or used as a TA, even briefly, whoring yourself out or pimped by the powers-that-be, just to get that degree?

[Loki]

Need someone other than Munchkin to feel superior to?

[GGT]

Need someone other than Munchkin to feel superior to?

Like I said, I've been told I "just don't understand" these things related to exploitation of power, or desperate need. So I'm asking others for illumination.

*That's actually an admission of inexperience or naivete.*

Hazir made a great point about dignity. I don't know what to make of your posts, Loki.

[Hazir]

Oh, this is about Munchkin again. Now it becomes a lot easier to take a position; no it isn't prostitution if you're not in it for the money. If somebody who you are having sex with supports you or helps you through tough times that's called supporting and helping. Which is not the same as procuring sexual services. When I first met Ronald, I didn't spend a red cent on our outings. That probably was the case for up to a year. The fact that he bought me drinks and theatre tickets never played into the reasons why I wanted to spend as much time as possible in bed with him.

In the case of Munchkin we have already gone through this in the threads that were basically about her needing help and help being offered. The only way accepting help is degrading and taking away your dignity is if you yourself don't look beyond that help in order to improve your situation.

I roughly know where you are coming from GGT, but middle class mores and middle class feminism in big chunks of this world mean next to nothing. Those would be the parts where survival is not quite as secure as in the average 3 bedroom 2 bathroom suburban home with a picket fence.

[EyeKhan]

#1. We're all prostitutes, selling ourselves for money and security one way or the other. (Blah blah blah...)

#2. The above isn't true. Prostitution is specficially about sex. That said, regardless of law, most men can't be prostitutes in a hetero way, because there's no market, though they would probably appreciate it more than most women, who, ironically, can. Ahhhhh, life.

#3. What the heck is this thread about anyway? Kept women? Moms? Doin' it for mony and security? That's the history of human civilziation, that. At least until about 70 years ago.

#4. Arn't all stay-at-home moms prostitutes or glorified nannys for some man's children? They don't bother to make a real living after all, do they? DO THEY?!?!? Then what?

[Nessus]

#1. We're all prostitutes, selling ourselves for money and security one way or the other. (Blah blah blah...)

I get paid to do interesting research that I love, with interesting and highly intelligent people. I'd do this for less money, and I'm not exactly well-paid.

[EyeKhan]

See #2.

[Nessus]

No.