RIP Dutch Coffeeshops

[Hazir]

Well, the contours of the new coffeeshop are getting clearer and it seems like the happy times will be over for a lot of people. Not in the least tourists who came to Amsterdam for that particular experience. The rules that most likely will be imposed are;

1. no coffeeshops closer than 350m to any school
2. coffeeshops will have to register all their customers as member and provide them with a membership card
3. no membership cards may be issued to people under 18 or people who don't have residence in The Netherlands
4. a maximum of 5 grammes per day is allowed per member of a coffeeshop
5. there will be some sort of central registration of sales to a member to enforce the limit nationwide
6. cash transactions will be prohibited at coffeeshops

Thanks to drugs tourists who couldn't deal with the freedom.

[RandBlade]

There goes Amsterdam's tourist trade.

EDIT: How long now until another nation decides to legalise it instead?

[Hazir]

Oh, what I forgot to mention is that the government has told that they see this as a last chance for coffeeshops to clean up their act. If the new policy is not effective in reducing the negative side effects of drugs tourism then the entire tolerance policy may be scrapped.

[Crowheart]

Out of curiosity, what's the point of the no cash transaction? (#6)

[Flixy]

Well, the contours of the new coffeeshop are getting clearer and it seems like the happy times will be over for a lot of people. Not in the least tourists who came to Amsterdam for that particular experience. The rules that most likely will be imposed are;

1. no coffeeshops closer than 350m to any school
2. coffeeshops will have to register all their customers as member and provide them with a membership card
3. no membership cards may be issued to people under 18 or people who don't have residence in The Netherlands
4. a maximum of 5 grammes per day is allowed per member of a coffeeshop
5. there will be some sort of central registration of sales to a member to enforce the limit nationwide
6. cash transactions will be prohibited at coffeeshops

Thanks to drugs tourists who couldn't deal with the freedom.

1: no problem with that, though not that important either. I mean, walking 500 meters isn't a problem either but I guess keeping the weed smokers away from the schoolyard isn't a bad idea.
2, 3 & 4: not that happy with the registering, but the point is that the condoning policy works.. for our own citizens. It only gets messy when it's sold abroad, causing problems. And tourists who don't know what the fuck they are doing. I can see the point of this, and don't really object badly. And 5 grams per person per day.. considering the strength of dutch weed, not an issue at all. I mean, half a gram of proper haze is enough to knock someone completely out. And it makes dealing (to, say, tourists or underage users) a bit harder (though actual dealers don't get their weed from coffeeshops anyway).
5: definitely not happy with the government keeping records of what I buy.
6: annoying but understandable.

All in all it seems that the drug policy is shifting back to what it was meant to be - for Dutch people to be able to smoke weed if they want to. I do think it is very much a shame that tourists can't enjoy coffeeshops anymore (which are, besides the weedselling, often nice places to hang, eat, have a drink, have a chat, or chill in general). And typically dutch. I think it's a loss for tourists, but it's also tourists who made this necessary by completely abusing the availability of drugs and causing a shitload of problems. (and to be honest, mostly English tourists ). It's a shame it has to go this way but I think overall this is an improvement.

But I think it's very important that the backdoor of the problem is addressed too - growing weed and supplying coffeeshops. Outside smuggling abroad, that's where the organized crime comes in. And the related violence (e.g. the 'crime wave' in my city right now). If that problem gets sorted out, I think a whole lot of drug related crime will disappear.

Out of curiosity, what's the point of the no cash transaction? (#6)

Off the books sales (circumventing the 5 grams a day, members only, etc.). Electronic transactions are recorded, cash can, well, disappear. Plus money laundernig issues for coffeeshops connected to organized crime (which they are).

[Dreadnaught]

Maybe another municipality in the Netherlands can step up and volunteer to just be a tourist-drug zone. Get the folks into Amsterdam, but make them spend money on trains and busses yet keep them out of the way of the civilized stuff while they get high.

[Flixy]

The biggest problem is not Amsterdam I think, it are the small cities in the border regions. E.g. my city is not so big (~200.000) but we currently have a lot of drugs related crime. The current coffeeshop plans are mostly to counter problems in the border regions, not really for Amsterdam. The recent crime wave is a reason used to speed up the process. Tourists in Amsterdam mainly cause incidents that get a lot of media attention but fade quickly, border region problems are a continuing problem. These rules would severely limit drug tourism, and shift to (illegal) drug dealers. Who would hopefully deal from their own country I must say, since Checkpoint was closed (biggest coffeeshop in Europe) was closed and the only remaining coffeeshop in the area had its hours limited, the amount of French license plates has dropped dramatically. During the short period that both were closed there were a lot of street dealers though, and they carried more than just weed.

Keep in mind that a 'crime wave' is by Dutch standards, so it means two murders in two months or so, plus one house shot up. For a region with ~700.000 people that's not so bad if you ask me.

[Flixy]

Oh and to put the tourism in perspective: Amsterdam has 4.5 million tourists a year, with a big portion of them not touching weed. By comparison, the coffeeshop where I grew up was in a city with 25.000 inhabitants, but the coffeeshop served an average of three thousand customers a day (50% french, 40% belgian), and there was a second coffeeshop serving a bit under 1000 people a day. I think the problems with that are fairly obvious. And Maastricht has similar problems, and Roosendaal did as well until they closed all shops.

[Nessus]

There goes Amsterdam's tourist trade.

EDIT: How long now until another nation decides to legalise it instead?

They're making noises about it here, but they have been for almost a decade

After the Baby Boomers are dead or demented, maybe

[Flixy]

Belgium has effectively legalised using but not selling. Owning small quantities (up to three gram) is allowed.

[Ziggy Stardust]

The big problem is other countries being anal about this stuff. For me personally, not that small a hoop to jump through. We all knew that Wilders hates our freedom

But Gawddamn, isn't this right-wing cab fab These jokers are really clamping down on them left-wing hobbies.

[Ominous Gamer]

After the Baby Boomers are dead or demented, maybe

Same here

[Flixy]

The big problem is other countries being anal about this stuff. For me personally, not that small a hoop to jump through. We all knew that Wilders hates our freedom

But Gawddamn, isn't this right-wing cab fab These jokers are really clamping down on them left-wing hobbies.

Yeah, like going to college :-p I'm still unsure if my tuition will triple in september nest year, or not. At least it looks like the Senate is going not going for the VAT increase on culture..

[']['ear]

Well, the contours of the new coffeeshop are getting clearer and it seems like the happy times will be over for a lot of people. Not in the least tourists who came to Amsterdam for that particular experience. The rules that most likely will be imposed are;

1. no coffeeshops closer than 350m to any school
2. coffeeshops will have to register all their customers as member and provide them with a membership card
3. no membership cards may be issued to people under 18 or people who don't have residence in The Netherlands
4. a maximum of 5 grammes per day is allowed per member of a coffeeshop
5. there will be some sort of central registration of sales to a member to enforce the limit nationwide
6. cash transactions will be prohibited at coffeeshops

Thanks to drugs tourists who couldn't deal with the freedom.

Not sure how much this will hamper. There are actually some establishments in my city that get around some silly local ordinance by having people pay a dollar to "sign up" when one walks in the door. If the profit margin is high enough (one bar and one wine bar come to mind) then this isn't prohibitively difficult. Note close to schools? Fine. No under 18 foreigners? Fine. 5 g max per day? Hardly prohibitive.

The only thing that concerned me is "cash transactions." Really? How do you reasonably block that? Or is that the deal breaker that will run "coffee shops" out of business?

[Flixy]

This will only harm foreigners. If anything, point 5 will lose them extra customers, and maybe the entire concept of having to be a member. Not paying cash wouldn't be a problem, everybody has a debit card here.

[']['ear]

Yeah, but to mandate card is weird.

[Flixy]

Cash can disappear, this has records.

[Crowheart]

Is the weed card a photo ID?
Lot of potential for amusing photos there.

[RandBlade]

If trying to prevent tourists as seems to be the case only #5 is weird. No problems with banning cash, sooner society scrapped cash as a whole the better.

[Nessus]

Next you'll want to fluoridate drinkin' water, hippie

What would organized crime use for currency? Drugs and slaves?

[Flixy]

Funny you mention it, but an organized-crime-banking-netwerk was just rolled up by the police, in Amsterdam.

[Ominous Gamer]

Depending how its written, an easy way to sidestep cash transactions is using the token system (either physcial tokens or prepaid swipe cards). Its why a lot of arcades use tokens or cards when dealing with games of chance and prizes (gambling).

[Flixy]

Yeah, but that seems weird in a cofeeshop. I mean, there's just one counter. Either you go to a counter and get tokens and switch those for weed at a second counter... Or you just buy your weed at the counter. Or am I missing your point?

[Ominous Gamer]

you would buy the tokens or credit offsite, with cash or whatever. something as complicated as a central hub, or as simple as a kiosk machine outfront.

not saying tokens are the best way to do business, just the most common way to get around restrictions on cash changing hands.

[Hazir]

If trying to prevent tourists as seems to be the case only #5 is weird. No problems with banning cash, sooiner society scrapped cash as a whole the better.

Rule 5 makes it impossible to locals to buy for scores of other people (like tourists who can't).

@Tear, what you don't seem to know is that the legal status of these coffeeshops is such that even attempts to sidestep the rules may result in closure. They are regulated, but not legal.

[Hazir]

you would buy the tokens or credit offsite, with cash or whatever. something as complicated as a central hub, or as simple as a kiosk machine outfront.

not saying tokens are the best way to do business, just the most common way to get around restrictions on cash changing hands.

I don't see tokens happening, why put up an expensive new system when there already is one in place that could keep track of all transactions?

[Ominous Gamer]

I was discussing ways to continue business without tracking all transactions, I was going against what rule 6 is trying to do.

[RandBlade]

I think he means rule 6 can't be avoided without breaking rule 5 too.

[Ominous Gamer]

Thats why you use a swipe card instead of old school tokens. The cards can track usage without removing privacy. We use the system at work to track out of towners; take down a little information to track what computer and when, and then its destroyed at the end of the day, since thats the end of the usage restrictions.

[Flixy]

They still know (or can find out) how much you spend at a coffeeshop - at which one you spend it isn't really relevant,