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Thread: "Students" violence and criminal damage

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    I agree with the concept but not the wording. The intent of the protests was to send a message to everyone else that they need to keep funding the students... they could have just created a website and made a rally or something like that, but instead they chose a loud and in some cases violent protest.
    Types of protests is one thing. Nobody is condoning student violence or rioting, just as nobody thinks european unions striking is very effective.

    "Lazing around for four years"...? Well, that goes to the idea that if something is free, people who otherwise would not have been able to get it do get it. If those people going to an English university now would have considered themselves financially better off to not do so because of those high "fees" being put in place, then "lazing around" is the equivalent of what they are doing.
    Public education is the issue. The UK decided they wanted higher education to be accessible and affordable to everyone. I don't know their tiers of college, testing methods, or merit systems. But it seems to me that making such drastic changes that affect the students and professors is pretty harsh. Almost begs for social unrest. Unless they're also expecting the same kind of sacrifice from seniors, retirees, or other areas of public spending.

  2. #32
    GGT so you know these aren't coming in overnight, IIRC this higher charges will affect those who start university in the academic year 2013/2014. Anyone currently at uni or who starts either next year or the year after will pay the old set.

  3. #33
    Just Floatin... termite's Avatar
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    On a related note, who is the fool that allowed Chuck & Edna to drive into the middle of a riot in a fucking Rolls Royce?
    Such is Life...

  4. #34
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ing-experience

    Last night I experienced, first hand, what it is like to be "kettled". Having been a researcher on criminal justice for the past 10 years this had particular poignancy. It was impossible not to feel the full force of dilemmas of balancing civil rights, protection of the public, the police's response to disorder and the role of the media in these events.

    I went to the student fees protest in the late afternoon, a middle-aged protester with memories of student marches past, but when I got there at 3pm, three sides of Parliament Square were blocked off. I witnessed police on horseback twice charge into a crowd and young people coming out bloodied and shocked. I could only sympathise with the woman next to me whose 14-year-old was still inside the police lines. I followed a small, calm crowd round to Whitehall, where things seemed less fraught, but the next thing I knew police horses and officers were lined up behind me and pushing whoever happened to be in front of them, including someone who had just come from the National Gallery with his souvenir bag, down towards the square.

    From that point, despite repeated pleas and tears (I am no courageous protester, I discovered), the police refused to let me go – for seven hours. I could not help but be shocked at my situation and at this police strategy. It was also clear from a number of conversations with officers that many of the frontline did not approve of this strategy either. Several told me they sympathised and blamed their senior officers. This is no survey but they could clearly see that most of us on that side of the square, now in an orderly queue stretching from Westminster Abbey to parliament and waiting to leave, were not causing disorder.

    Kettling or containment is justified by the police as a response to dealing with disorder while minimising use of force. Certainly I am glad this protest was not a Tiananmen Square. British police do not shoot at crowds. And we need to recognise that and value that. There were clearly a number of people at the protest who were intent on causing trouble. There were also some seasoned protesters, some wanting to cause trouble, some trying to help people understand what was going on, some trying to organise ways of getting out. How can the police tell the difference?

    Nevertheless, people joining an orderly queue can hardly be described as "disorderly". And after standing for over an hour in that queue only to be told they were not to be released a startling number of people did go over to the other side of the square, possibly to join in the vandalism of the Treasury. If so, then the decision not to release people, who were peacefully trying to leave, inflamed the situation, which is the key criticism of this strategy.

    On the other side of the square, myself and a large crowd remained huddled in the cold for seven hours, with no food, no water, no toilets, no access to medical attention and with minors unable to get home. For 15-year-olds in T-shirts, and older people (I saw at least two men in their late 60s and early 70s) this is no joke. Contravention of these basic rights by this approach to protest policing has been challenged in the courts in the past. The May Day 2001 protesters sued the Metropolitan police on the grounds of wrongful detention with no access to food, water and toilets. Though taken to appeal at the House of Lords, this case failed.

    The dilemma remains: how do the police protect the rights and safety of protesters but also deal with a disorderly minority without using excessive force, or inflaming the situation? I am not sure I have the answer. All I know is that I was effectively put in danger and held without cause. That did not feel like the actions of a country that respected my rights.

    There remains, however, another key protagonist in protest: the media. On getting home last night I was stunned to see journalists had not told the whole story of the protest that I witnessed. Instead, the focus on the attack on the royals and the Treasury, shocking though they are, have allowed for sensationalist coverage and tough talk. This seems to have left little room for debate about the appropriateness of these tactics, particularly against children.

    It leaves no room for questioning the challenge to people's right to protest, either because you could not have joined a protest after 4.30pm when the police blocked access to Parliament Square or because this experience might put you off going again. Most of the media, rather than filming the long orderly queue on one side of the square calmly waiting to be let out – to no avail – concentrated on the people smashing things, who in turn justify their actions as the only way to get media attention. Where does that leave me and the 15-year-olds trying to go home to their parents? Without media and independent scrutiny of police tactics as well as the violence of some protesters, the rights of the rest of us are undermined.

  5. #35
    Kettling sounds like a weird way to do things. What do kettles do? Boil over.

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Public education is the issue. The UK decided they wanted higher education to be accessible and affordable to everyone. I don't know their tiers of college, testing methods, or merit systems. But it seems to me that making such drastic changes that affect the students and professors is pretty harsh. Almost begs for social unrest. Unless they're also expecting the same kind of sacrifice from seniors, retirees, or other areas of public spending.
    But they are cutting dramatically everywhere else too, aren't they? Anyhoo, I'm not sure cutback "fairness" reduces "social unrest".

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Kettling sounds like a weird way to do things. What do kettles do? Boil over.
    Couldn't have put it better myself Gee.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    It's actually the original French billion, which is bi-million, which is a million to the power of 2. We adopted the word, and then they changed it, presumably as revenge for Crecy and Agincourt, and then the treasonous Americans adopted the new French usage and spread it all over the world. And now we have to use it.

    And that's Why I'm Voting Leave.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Lor's Avatar
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    (...) I could only sympathise with the woman next to me whose 14-year-old was still inside the police lines. I followed a small, calm crowd round to Whitehall, where things seemed less fraught, but the next thing I knew police horses and officers were lined up behind me and pushing whoever happened to be in front of them, including someone who had just come from the National Gallery with his souvenir bag, down towards the square.
    What is a 14 year old doing there anyway?

    (...) From that point, despite repeated pleas and tears (I am no courageous protester, I discovered), the police refused to let me go – for seven hours. I could not help but be shocked at my situation and at this police strategy.
    If you didn't like the situation, why go in the first place? Everyone knew what containment techniques they use, especially as they used them days before. If i were a policemen i wouldn't know who anyone is and i certainly wouldn't trust anyone.

  9. #39
    The police - multiple of whom have been either hospitalised or have faced attempted murder from protesters - are doing a tough job in very difficult circumstances. Kettling is a non-violent containment technique, what better alternative is there?

    Kettling has been used (and announced beforehand it would be used) at the second protest onwards. Have a look at the violence and mayhem from the first protest onwards to figure out why.
    On the other side of the square, myself and a large crowd remained huddled in the cold for seven hours, with no food, no water, no toilets, no access to medical attention and with minors unable to get home. For 15-year-olds in T-shirts, and older people (I saw at least two men in their late 60s and early 70s) this is no joke. Contravention of these basic rights by this approach to protest policing has been challenged in the courts in the past. The May Day 2001 protesters sued the Metropolitan police on the grounds of wrongful detention with no access to food, water and toilets. Though taken to appeal at the House of Lords, this case failed.
    What a ridiculously badly written and biased paragraph.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fixed
    ... this approach to protest policing has been upheld in the courts in the past. The May Day 2001 protesters unsuccessfully sued the Metropolitan police on the grounds of wrongful detention with no access to food, water and toilets. Though taken to appeal at the House of Lords, this case failed.
    So the protesters lost their arguments in every court right up to the highest court of the land (House of Lords = Supreme Court), this has been upheld as a perfectly legal technique but the very nature of being upheld as legal is used as spin to try and pretend its dubious as "its been challenged".

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Oh wow the part where they can't pay off a loan early is stupid. What is the point of that?
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    It's a "progressive" measure to get the lefty Lib-Dems to vote for it, it's so that the "rich" graduates can't "unfairly" pay their loan off early to avoid paying the interest which is what'll fund the system. It's not a commercial rate of interest, it's still very low, plus "poor" graduates won't repay anything so they say they'll need to rely on that interest in order to pay for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    That is pretty screwed up, thanks for the explanation.
    Actually, this is the same concept behind the true fixed rate mortgage. The student knows up front how much their service costs, and that the interest part of it is part of how the program pays for itself. So it's actually not particularly screwed up economically, it's just not what we're used to in the US. As Wiggin pointed out, true fixed rate mortgages should follow this same outline so that the lender can accurately assess the cost of risk, which they can't when refinancing is an option.

    It is political in that they can keep the interest rate lower. If early payback were allowed, the interest rate would have to be higher to have the same budgetary footprint.


    And Lewk, didn't you go to a public university? Do you not understand the degree to which education at those is subsidized? YOU were sucking at the government teat there for 4 years.

  11. #41
    Disagreed Tear that interest rates would be higher if early repayment wasn't allowed for the reasons I gave above. The logic that the costs are known in advance only works if none of the following were true, especially #3:
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    1: The government is tight on money now, not just in the future
    2: Set-up costs of this are enormous - a large amount of cash will go to the universities immediately, but it will be years before major regular repayments are received
    3: There is a risk that if the money's not repaid early it never will be: The "loan" is written off in full upon a premature death, or if they reach a certain age, or if their earnings go too low again, or if they go overseas and it can't be easily recovered.

  12. #42
    It is not good that the police hold people, against their will, for hours on end in the freezing cold, when said people have been queueing up for hours (only in this country ) to leave the area of the protest, and asking the police politely to do so. What reason is there to keep the peaceful element of the protest in one confined area when they want to leave peacefully, long after the actual protest is over?

    As has been said time and again, this tactic does nothing but serve to frustrate people, and lead to those who were heretofore perfectly peaceful feeling frustrated and damn pissed off, and rightfully so. Making a bad situation worse is an understatement, and there is no one to blame for that here but the police.

    The police do not have an easy job, no. It is often a case of damned if they do, damned if they don't. But these containment tactics as they have played out do not work.

    The policing strategy for protests needs an overhaul.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    It's actually the original French billion, which is bi-million, which is a million to the power of 2. We adopted the word, and then they changed it, presumably as revenge for Crecy and Agincourt, and then the treasonous Americans adopted the new French usage and spread it all over the world. And now we have to use it.

    And that's Why I'm Voting Leave.

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Timbuk2 View Post
    What reason is there to keep the peaceful element of the protest in one confined area when they want to leave peacefully, long after the actual protest is over?
    Containment, especially with the rioting and vandalism going on both at the time and at other protests.
    As has been said time and again, this tactic does nothing but serve to frustrate people, and lead to those who were heretofore perfectly peaceful feeling frustrated and damn pissed off, and rightfully so. Making a bad situation worse is an understatement, and there is no one to blame for that here but the police.
    Yes it does, it serves to keep a bad situation contained and ensure that the violence isn't allowed to spill over elsewhere. As for no-one to blame, how about those who made such tactics necessary.
    But these containment tactics as they have played out do not work.
    How do you know? It could have been far worse if the violence wasn't restricted to one area.

  14. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Disagreed Tear that interest rates would be higher if early repayment wasn't allowed for the reasons I gave above. The logic that the costs are known in advance only works if none of the following were true, especially #3:
    Not sure what your problem is. The government wants to recoup amount Y in interest in addition to principle payment X. this covers a number of things:
    1) administrative costs to government
    2) interest costs to government
    3) default risks (which can be estimated and incorporated into the interest rate that is set)

    But if the government is going to have a certain fraction of those loans paid off early, with less interest, then the costs of the loan to the government are higher (because the other costs are NOT proportionately diminished). Consequently, the government needs to raise the interest rate in response to its increased risk assessment on recouping its money.

    Seriously, just like the point Wiggin made about mortgages in the US. What are known as the classic "30 year fixed rate" mortgages are actually not fixed. They are fixed wrt to the lendee, but the lender is left dangling in the breeze, because if general interest rates drop and the lendee refinances (i.e. pays loan of early), then the lender doesn't recoup enough money to balance risks.

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Yes it does, it serves to keep a bad situation contained and ensure that the violence isn't allowed to spill over elsewhere.
    No it doesn't, it makes a bad situation worse.

    If you can't see that preventing many hundreds of peaceful people who are trying to move away from the violence from doing so, for many hours, is going to anger people and make a bad situation worse, then there is not much point in arguing further on this point.

    How do you know? It could have been far worse if the violence wasn't restricted to one area.
    Clear accounts from Parliament Square is how I know.

    The violence was taking place in the southwest corner of Parliament Square, as protesters tried to charge police lines and break through to Victoria St and the Houses of Parliament.

    The peaceful people who wanted to leave the violence and the area were queueing to do so, and prevented from doing so, for hours, were at the north east exit onto Great George St, and north west exit onto Parliament street.

    This serves to frustrate the peaceful element of the crowd. Like I say, making a bad situation worse.

    ~

    The Independent Police Complaints Commission advised the Met to to review its crowd control methods, including the tactic of kettling.

    Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Constabulary, Denis O'Connor, described the kettling technique as "inadequate" and belonging to a "different era" of policing.


    ~

    So the authorities themselves agree that the tactic is inadequate ...

    ~

    However, he did not suggest that kettling should be abandoned - rather the methods must be adapted so that peaceful protesters and bystanders are able to leave the kettle.

    ~

    Which is exactly what I've been saying all along. Let the peaceful ones leave.
    Last edited by Timbuk2; 12-14-2010 at 07:09 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    It's actually the original French billion, which is bi-million, which is a million to the power of 2. We adopted the word, and then they changed it, presumably as revenge for Crecy and Agincourt, and then the treasonous Americans adopted the new French usage and spread it all over the world. And now we have to use it.

    And that's Why I'm Voting Leave.

  16. #46
    Agree with Tim. Kettling does sound like an 'old era' of police crowd control. Is it because of how those horses are used?

    Over here they disperse angry crowds, to dilute them. "Move along, break it up". Isn't that why smoke bombs or water hoses are used when things get hairy?

    Whose bright idea was it to route the Royal Rolls through that mess? Good luck with the Royal wedding coming up.

  17. #47
    Kettling sounds pretty tame compared to what I would do to people blocking traffic, damaging property and attacking innocent bystanders or police.

    Peaceful protest is perfectly fine and shouldn't be harmed as long it doesn't inconvenience or harm people or their business. However once it gets violent the best solution is to put down those who do the violence hard with more force then is needed as to send a message to others who would think of doing the same thing.

  18. #48
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Kettling sounds pretty tame compared to what I would do to people blocking traffic, damaging property and attacking innocent bystanders or police.

    Peaceful protest is perfectly fine and shouldn't be harmed as long it doesn't inconvenience or harm people or their business. However once it gets violent the best solution is to put down those who do the violence hard with more force then is needed as to send a message to others who would think of doing the same thing.
    As long as it doesn't inconvenience people? When does any kind of protest ever NOT inconvenience someone? You've gone off the deep end now. Again.

    And your second tactic would escalate the violence, you moron. What do you want to do? Call in the army to shoot some people?

    Maybe you should move to China. Seems to be your thing.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  19. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Kettling sounds pretty tame compared to what I would do to people blocking traffic, damaging property and attacking innocent bystanders or police.
    I thought it was the peaceful protesters who were kettled
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  20. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    I thought it was the peaceful protesters who were kettled
    No, peaceful protesters can get caught up with the kettling.

  21. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    No, peaceful protesters can get caught up with the kettling.
    But you've *personally* helped thousands of students so it's a-okay
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  22. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    But you've *personally* helped thousands of students so it's a-okay
    No I've not. For someone who pretends to be a fascist like you, you've got some very liberal views

  23. #53
    Khen -

    As long as it doesn't inconvenience people? When does any kind of protest ever NOT inconvenience someone? You've gone off the deep end now. Again.
    By inconvenience I mean something tangible. IE - slowing traffic, blocking traffic, blocking entrances to businesses/homes, damaging property, ect ect. Being visible and saying mean things doesn't cross my "line" and into inconvenience. You can make your complaint known via protest but you shouldn't be able to interfere with people's daily lives.

    And your second tactic would escalate the violence, you moron. What do you want to do? Call in the army to shoot some people?
    Says the person who doesn't believe in deterrence. You target the violent people and eliminate them if they escalate the violence. Now I admit this can be tricky because you want to avoid getting the peaceful protesters. Violence as a means of protest should never be condoned. It should be dealt harshly as to intimate others from doing so. There are only two reasons why people ever obey laws: Fear and Morality. If someone is willing to start smashing other people's stuff it is obvious they are not going to be motivated by morality so they must be influenced by fear.

    The only time it is "OK" to go out on the streets and smash things and attack the police is if you are actually attempting to overthrow a corrupt/bad government. Barring that, attacking innocent people and private property should always be dealt with quickly and efficiently.

  24. #54
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    By inconvenience I mean something tangible. IE - slowing traffic, blocking traffic, blocking entrances to businesses/homes, damaging property, ect ect. Being visible and saying mean things doesn't cross my "line" and into inconvenience. You can make your complaint known via protest but you shouldn't be able to interfere with people's daily lives.
    Yeah, that's right! Protest against anything! Make your voices heard! But only where you don't disturb anyone!

    ...

    You do realize that a protest which is not allowed to inconvenience anyone is not exactly a protest anymore?
    I mean, imagine a protest movement which gathers 300,000 people in Washington D.C. Do you think they won't flood the subways, thus inconveniencing the regular workers? Streets will be full somewhere. Extra trains and cars galore! Inconvenience all around!

    According to your ruling, such protests may only be held somewhere in the rural areas of Kansas or Alaska. Oh, wait, even there they'd fill the highway thus inconveniencing the people there.

    Says the person who doesn't believe in deterrence.
    It's all black and white with you, isn't it? I don't "believe" in deterrence. Deterrence has its time and place, it is the result of the cousins "consistency", "adequacy" and "temporal adjacency". Shooting people does not fulfill two of those conditions - it's not consistent, since people will be shot at random in such a crowd; it's also not adequate, throwing a stone does not equal the death penalty in any justice system I know.
    And the violent people will hide within the crowd - have fun picking them out. Hint: These people won't simply run out one person at a time, throw a stone and then let themselves be shot, moron.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  25. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Yeah, that's right! Protest against anything! Make your voices heard! But only where you don't disturb anyone!

    ...

    You do realize that a protest which is not allowed to inconvenience anyone is not exactly a protest anymore?
    I mean, imagine a protest movement which gathers 300,000 people in Washington D.C. Do you think they won't flood the subways, thus inconveniencing the regular workers? Streets will be full somewhere. Extra trains and cars galore! Inconvenience all around!

    According to your ruling, such protests may only be held somewhere in the rural areas of Kansas or Alaska. Oh, wait, even there they'd fill the highway thus inconveniencing the people there.



    It's all black and white with you, isn't it? I don't "believe" in deterrence. Deterrence has its time and place, it is the result of the cousins "consistency", "adequacy" and "temporal adjacency". Shooting people does not fulfill two of those conditions - it's not consistent, since people will be shot at random in such a crowd; it's also not adequate, throwing a stone does not equal the death penalty in any justice system I know.
    And the violent people will hide within the crowd - have fun picking them out. Hint: These people won't simply run out one person at a time, throw a stone and then let themselves be shot, moron.
    You are free to act as you wish in society until it harms other people. Preventing people from working due to the blocking of traffic is not something that should be allowed to happen. Damaging other people's property should not be allowed to occur. The government must intervene. The entire *point* of government is to protect people from internal and external threats. Protests that damage property, endanger lives and prevent the normal flow of business is the exact sort of thing that the government was designed to stop!

    And I'm not in favor of indiscriminate shooting into a crowd, I specifically stated the police should take care to avoid hitting innocent bystanders.

  26. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    No I've not. For someone who pretends to be a fascist like you, you've got some very liberal views
    I dunno, maybe it'd help curtail the violent outbreak if your po-po shot some people on the street? I'm not sure British culture is quite ready for that, even though the majority of your people have moved closer to Maggie's views. The point is, you strike terror and fear into the hearts of those who are acting against the state, not the ones who're sitting by; you can have fascism with a human heart.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  27. #57
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    You are free to act as you wish in society until it harms other people. Preventing people from working due to the blocking of traffic is not something that should be allowed to happen. Damaging other people's property should not be allowed to occur. The government must intervene. The entire *point* of government is to protect people from internal and external threats. Protests that damage property, endanger lives and prevent the normal flow of business is the exact sort of thing that the government was designed to stop!
    Yeah, business must continue at all costs! Free speech be damned! Yeah, and that First Amendment? Rubbish, I say!

    So, why don't you already move to China? I hear, they're all for these kinds of fascist ideas!

    And I'm not in favor of indiscriminate shooting into a crowd, I specifically stated the police should take care to avoid hitting innocent bystanders.
    Heh. Right. So, here we have a milling throng of people and on the other side we have police men with pistols, possibly at some distance.
    Now, would you mind telling me what the chances of actually hitting your target are? And not the innocent bystander who suddenly stumbled into your line of fire? What if your perpetrator ducks? Vanishes into the crowd?

    There's a pretty big reason why police men are discouraged from discharging their weapons if there are other people around their target. I mean, even a sharp shooter does not hit 100% of the time.
    Point is: Any kind of shooting into a crowd is by the nature of the crowd indiscriminatory.

    I'm awaiting your next argument: Will it be the "Well, if you did not want to get shot, you should have stayed at home!" argument which is always the hall mark of a pretty little Nazi?
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  28. #58
    hang on i thought the britis govt, like all european govts, WAS a corrupt and bad govt...

  29. #59
    Khen -

    Yeah, business must continue at all costs! Free speech be damned! Yeah, and that First Amendment? Rubbish, I say!
    You have the right to freely speak. You do not have the right to physically attack people. You do not have the right to impede other people's passage down a public area. You do not have the right to damage people's property. NONE of that has anything to do with freedom of speech.

    Now, would you mind telling me what the chances of actually hitting your target are? And not the innocent bystander who suddenly stumbled into your line of fire? What if your perpetrator ducks? Vanishes into the crowd?
    You don't take the shot with real bullets. You ensure that the violent folks are caught on camera for arrest later. Or you use tasers/tear gas and other non-lethal weaponry. Ultimately if the crowd gets violent enough you may have to use more force on the entire mass but I don't think the British crowds were anywhere near that point.

  30. #60
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Khen
    You know that "reply with quote"-link below each post? Use it.[/quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    You have the right to freely speak. You do not have the right to physically attack people. You do not have the right to impede other people's passage down a public area. You do not have the right to damage people's property. NONE of that has anything to do with freedom of speech.
    Erm, right. You still have not realized that you restrictions effectively banned any and all kinds of demonstrations and protests.

    Not to mention that your limitations are already used to curb free speech - protesters against the president are carried off to some remote location, out of sight and earshot while his supporters are allowed to stay near the presidential route. If that's not censorship then I don't know what is.

    Basically, yours are fascist ideas. Germany has a better way of doing that. Small demonstrations anytime, almost anywhere (safe for on a street). Or you register your demonstration and then you can demonstrate literally anywhere - provided that the police deems your suggested route or place safe enough. That last provision is needed for demonstrations by the extreme-right NPD and the like.

    You don't take the shot with real bullets. You ensure that the violent folks are caught on camera for arrest later. Or you use tasers/tear gas and other non-lethal weaponry. Ultimately if the crowd gets violent enough you may have to use more force on the entire mass but I don't think the British crowds were anywhere near that point.
    Newsflash: Even plastic bullets can main and kill. There's no safe weapon. You're still a moron.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

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