What what, did I hear "increase the child tax credit"?

[EyeKhan]

Jesus Choobs. There is no guarantee that those that do WILL use it for their kids.

It's vote buying, pure and simple.

No guarantees, so lets do nothing. Well, you're going to have a guarantee with that policy for sure.

[EyeKhan]

You're confusing the status of middle class, as well as what defines it. Middle class has disposable income. If you're having to tighten up to the effect of "prolonging the recession" you aren't or never were middle class. You were likely living in a fantasy world.

Not necessarily. A lot of income is based on bonus' and commission. Others on overtime. A lot of people have gotten their hours cut from 40 to 35 or even 30. And a lot of people have lost their jobs. There's lots of reasons why someone may have less income that doesn't relate to debt spending.

Next, hasn't research shown that childless adults are far better better consumers than those that have children? Thats one of the strongest arguments used in supporting homosexual relationships.

I've never heard anything like that. I know I buy a lot of stuff for my kids... a hell of a lot more crap gets bought than when I was childless.

So why reward the ones who couldn't keep it in their pants?

Um, that's an interesting take. But note that this is a nation of people and the children are the future of the nation. I'm not sure I'd classify them a liablity because some reckless moron couldn't abstain from sex.

There are far better ways to help the children. Rewarding parents directly, because you're claiming to help the ones that have already shown to be financial fuck ups, its not high on that list of "help that makes sense".

Again, I think your premise isn't reflecting reality: All, or even a majorit, of parents who are feeling a pinch due to the recession are fuck ups.

[Hazir]

The whole class angle is utterly irrelevant to me. It probably means less for people who are in the middle class than for somebody in the lower socio economic strata anyway, but that doesn't take away from the fact that a child put into this world potentially will at some day pay back all society invested in it and more.

[Ominous Gamer]

Not necessarily. A lot of income is based on bonus' and commission. Others on overtime. A lot of people have gotten their hours cut from 40 to 35 or even 30. And a lot of people have lost their jobs. There's lots of reasons why someone may have less income that doesn't relate to debt spending.

Less income means you have to have less debt spending. Which means cutting out the tell tale signs of middle class life.
Less income does not mean the government needs to step in to prop up the lifestyle you couldn't afford and plan long term to begin with.

I've never heard anything like that. I know I buy a lot of stuff for my kids... a hell of a lot more crap gets bought than when I was childless.

It had to do something with the volume, value and quantity of purchases. Childless adults are more likely to spend big and on fewer imported goods (without it even being a concern) than adults with children. More expensive purchases also meant higher profits for local businesses. More of a childless adult's income went to profit, when the parent's income went towards products with slim profits because it was mostly overseas manufacturing and importing costs.
Its like comparing leasing a new cadillac to purchasing a years worth of chinese made school supplies. Comparing buying imported Ramen to shopping at Whole Foods.

Um, that's an interesting take. But note that this is a nation of people and the children are the future of the nation. I'm not sure I'd classify them a liablity because some reckless moron couldn't abstain from sex.

Again, I think your premise isn't reflecting reality: All, or even a majorit, of parents who are feeling a pinch due to the recession are fuck ups.

Never said a majority, or all of parents.
What I am saying is that this is a bribe to everyone, using the fuck ups as an excuse that its what the children need. Being in a "pinch" does not require government assistance, especially if you consider yourself middle class.

There are far better and more efficient ways to invest in our children then to give extra tax credits to the parents.

Know what we're using our tax credit on?
4 night bahama cruise via Disney, yes with the children. Which isn't all bad, the government does get $500 of the money back in passport fees.

[Veldan Rath]

No guarantees, so lets do nothing. Well, you're going to have a guarantee with that policy for sure.

Where did I say let's do nothing?

And nice dodge on the vote buying.

[EyeKhan]

Less income means you have to have less debt spending. Which means cutting out the tell tale signs of middle class life.
Less income does not mean the government needs to step in to prop up the lifestyle you couldn't afford and plan long term to begin with.

<sigh> your lack of empathy, while certainly not unAmerican, is certainly disappointing. Take this as an example: My brother is an electrician. He runs his own electrical shop. He has two children and a wife that works part time. Because the economy has tanked, construction electrical work has tanked. So has residential, because people are either doing it themselves or just not doing it if they can. So, his business is way down, unprecedentedly down as the economy hasn't done anything like this in his life-time, and with it his income is down too. Now, his family health care costs have not dropped. His mortgage has not dropped. His property taxes have not dropped. His food costs have not dropped. Nor has his car payment. His shop rental. His union dues. If he gets a bigger income tax refund this year, because he has two children, that might, just might get him through this unprecedented dry spell.

Now note, he is middle class but he's not having financial woes because he's a lazy hyper consuming dumb fuck that can't stop spending money. Nor is it reasonable for him to sell his house and car, stop renting his electrical shop, and put his kids up for adoption because his finances are temporarily - presumably - down due to an unprecedented recession. Life is a LOT more complicated than: "You having financial troubles? Well it's your own damn fault and don't look to the Nanny State to help your dumb ass out!" Jesus. When did you start thinking as dumb as conservatives?

[EyeKhan]

Where did I say let's do nothing?

And nice dodge on the vote buying.

You said:

Jesus Choobs. There is no guarantee that those that do WILL use it for their kids.

It's vote buying, pure and simple.

I assume by that first statement you meant because there is no guarantee this money will be "used for the kids" whatever the fuck that means, then this credit should not be given. Did you mean something else?

I'm not sure what I'm dodging on the vote buying issue. If a senator's constituents are suffering financial woes due to a recession and he helps pass some kind of financial relief, the cynics are always going to say he's buying votes. Same thing with the capital gains tax cut. Conservatives buying votes. Both have actual underlying policy considerations too, don't they.

[Ominous Gamer]

Now note, he is middle class

I'm just cutting to this, since you ignored every other point I made. Your brother is no longer middle class. This is something he must come to terms with. Expenses can be cut, especially on the grocery bill on a middle class household. I'd also bring up being under water on the mortgage, but I'm sure you're dying to jump all over that. Maybe I should bring up how all those high school financial classes taught to save up for "temporarily" drops in income.

But even in your example, having kids has absofuckinglutely nothing to do with the position your brother has placed himself in. Your brother extended himself past his means, and is now going to use his children to stay afloat. No way in hell is his tax credit going completely towards his children. Therefore this is an inefficient way to invest in our children, and just another way to reward those that don't need rewarded.

So why shaft those without kids, there are just as many textbook examples like the one you just gave me where children aren't involved.

[Nessus]

I like this juxtaposition of champagne socialist vs reformed crack addict

[EyeKhan]

But even in your example, having kids has absofuckinglutely nothing to do with the position your brother has placed himself in. Your brother extended himself past his means, and is now going to use his children to stay afloat. No way in hell is his tax credit going completely towards his children. Therefore this is an inefficient way to invest in our children, and just another way to reward those that don't need rewarded.

So why shaft those without kids, there are just as many textbook examples like the one you just gave me where children aren't involved.

Extended beyond his means. Yeah, so your solution to everyone in financial trouble due to the worst recession since the 1930s is they should have been ready for it and since they weren't its their own damn fault so fuck them. After all, who didn't see this coming, right? Please.

And no, he's not going to try and use his children to stay afloat. (Jesus, I can't believe how you are slurring this shit around to put the most negative spin on people you can. ) He's receiving a targeted tax credit to help him get through the recession without having to dump his busines and assets. Why target people with kids? Because maybe someone has made a value judgement that helping adults with children is more urgent than helping adults wtihout children. Do you have more responsibility now that you have kids? Do you think losing your house is a bigger deal now that you have kids than it would be before you had them? Come on! This is getting ridiculous! Is that the key to being conservative? Hate people? Blame them for their own problems? Resent them for the help they get? Assume the worst out of people? Fuck.

[Veldan Rath]

You said:

I assume by that first statement you meant because there is no guarantee this money will be "used for the kids" whatever the fuck that means, then this credit should not be given. Did you mean something else?

I'm not sure what I'm dodging on the vote buying issue. If a senator's constituents are suffering financial woes due to a recession and he helps pass some kind of financial relief, the cynics are always going to say he's buying votes. Same thing with the capital gains tax cut. Conservatives buying votes. Both have actual underlying policy considerations too, don't they.

You are correct in that I think there should be no tax credit.

But there are OTHER way to help. IT"S JUST NOT THE FED'S JOB.

You are also correct earlier that the tax credit is a fucking inefficient way to take money then give it back. Maybe just not tax income at all? (oooo can't have that though can we? wouldn't want the Fed to lose it's overlordship power over it's citizens would we?)

AND you are correct it is vote buy all around, so maybe we need another method of taxation.

Tax consumption (ideally) or wealth (too difficult)...not income.

AND yer calling OG a conservative?

[EyeKhan]

But there are OTHER way to help. IT"S JUST NOT THE FED'S JOB.

Send them the CHURCH! Let the United Way do it! Why should the government be in the business of safeguarding its citizens! This is where it gets down to the meat of the thread I started about what you think the nation is for.

You are also correct earlier that the tax credit is a fucking inefficient way to take money then give it back. Maybe just not tax income at all? (oooo can't have that though can we? wouldn't want the Fed to lose it's overlordship power over it's citizens would we?)

With taxes you buy civilization. It all depends on what you want your government to be doing, what kind of nation you want to live in. Might be perfect to post such things in that other thread. This conversation is what got me thinking about it in the first place.

AND yer calling OG a conservative?

OG is making arguments typically made by jaded, cynical conservatives. Quack and I'll call you a duck.

[LittleFuzzy]

Uh, if she's getting a refunded child tax credit *i.e. the Additional Child Tax Credit* then my understanding is that while it comes from general treasury funds, it's refunding payroll taxes. So she might not be paying any federal income tax, but there are still federal taxes she is paying.

[Veldan Rath]

Send them the CHURCH! Let the United Way do it! Why should the government be in the business of safeguarding its citizens! This is where it gets down to the meat of the thread I started about what you think the nation is for.

With taxes you buy civilization. It all depends on what you want your government to be doing, what kind of nation you want to live in. Might be perfect to post such things in that other thread. This conversation is what got me thinking about it in the first place.

OG is making arguments typically made by jaded, cynical conservatives. Quack and I'll call you a duck.

Now I get to call some one else a knee jerk reactionary! (Wow, now I see why Tear does it.)

I did not say there should be no taxes you jackass. I suggest that there are other ways for tax revenue to be garnered. Also, this country is not just the Federal Government. It made up of 50 States and those States have governments, rights, and duties.


And so OG makes one or two observations that disagrees with your view and he is now a Conservative. You're making arguments like a paternalistic liberal. Or as Nessus points out, a champagne socialist. (Thank you Ness...it explains so much)

You are just a hack.

[Ominous Gamer]

Extended beyond his means. Yeah, so your solution to everyone in financial trouble due to the worst recession since the 1930s is they should have been ready for it and since they weren't its their own damn fault so fuck them. After all, who didn't see this coming, right? Please.

And no, he's not going to try and use his children to stay afloat. (Jesus, I can't believe how you are slurring this shit around to put the most negative spin on people you can. ) He's receiving a targeted tax credit to help him get through the recession without having to dump his busines and assets. Why target people with kids? Because maybe someone has made a value judgement that helping adults with children is more urgent than helping adults wtihout children. Do you have more responsibility now that you have kids? Do you think losing your house is a bigger deal now that you have kids than it would be before you had them? Come on! This is getting ridiculous! Is that the key to being conservative? Hate people? Blame them for their own problems? Resent them for the help they get? Assume the worst out of people? Fuck.

3 cheers for more selective reading and replying!

I think people should stand to lose a lot if they didn't have the common sense to secure it. Middleclass is not a class that the government should be focusing on, just to make sure they stay middle class. I've seen that getting knocked down a rung or two helps people become more humble and protective with what they earn. I don't see why a household that makes $80,000 should get to double their child tax credit to "temporarily" avoid having to be a pinch.

A large percentage of the middle class could learn a lot after having to fend for themselves. Getting propped up by the government so they can avoid any discomfort doesn't solve a damn thing thats currently wrong with this country.
I have no problem with government program and support to those that have reached rock bottom and need help getting their head above water. I do have a problem with the government stepping in before the family even has to get their hands dirty.

Yes your brother is a textbook sob story. His family needs to sit down and reevaluate a lot of what they took for granted.
They should not expect the government to continue to fund their way of living.

[GGT]

OG, did you say you're using your child tax credit to go on a cruise? But you take WIC and say getting married would be a financial burden?

[Veldan Rath]

Who are you and what have you done with the real OG's body?

Or have you always been this way, and I've just not noticed?

[Ominous Gamer]

Uh, if she's getting a refunded child tax credit *i.e. the Additional Child Tax Credit* then my understanding is that while it comes from general treasury funds, it's refunding payroll taxes. So she might not be paying the federal income tax, but there are still federal taxes she is paying.

I haven't seen a paystub in a long while, but I believe it was the "FED TAX" listing that was always zero. The others still had deductions.

OG, did you say you're using your child tax credit to go on a cruise? But you take WIC and say getting married would be a financial burden?

Not really a burden, but we're better off not married.
She is no longer on food stamps. Brandy still gets WIC; never seen so much milk! They also help with the $12 a can formula.

Who are you and what have you done with the real OG's body?

Or have you always been this way, and I've just not noticed?

The ACC was always black and white. Always about the too poor or the too rich. Don't remember discussing the middle. The middle class is just like the middle child. No one cares.

[Veldan Rath]

Hmmm...not sure I agree, but that's just me.

It would lead to an interesting side dissucssion: What is the definition of The Middle Class?

Between me and my spouse we earn about $120,000 before taxes in Maine (yes, I think where you live means just as much as how much you earn), so is that Middle Class? I think so, upper end maybe (cause we are in Maine).

[GGT]

3 cheers for more selective reading and replying!

I think people should stand to lose a lot if they didn't have the common sense to secure it. Middleclass is not a class that the government should be focusing on, just to make sure they stay middle class. I've seen that getting knocked down a rung or two helps people become more humble and protective with what they earn. I don't see why a household that makes $80,000 should get to double their child tax credit to "temporarily" avoid having to be a pinch.

A large percentage of the middle class could learn a lot after having to fend for themselves. Getting propped up by the government so they can avoid any discomfort doesn't solve a damn thing thats currently wrong with this country.
I have no problem with government program and support to those that have reached rock bottom and need help getting their head above water. I do have a problem with the government stepping in before the family even has to get their hands dirty.

Yes your brother is a textbook sob story. His family needs to sit down and reevaluate a lot of what they took for granted.
They should not expect the government to continue to fund their way of living.

So, do you put yourself in that category, too? If you're accepting WIC, then what the hell are you doing planning a Disney Cruise?

[EyeKhan]

I did not say there should be no taxes you jackass.

And I didn't say you did fuck face.

I suggest that there are other ways for tax revenue to be garnered. Also, this country is not just the Federal Government. It made up of 50 States and those States have governments, rights, and duties.

Thanks for the civics lesson, now my statement still stands. You buy civilization with taxes. How much you tax and how you tax depends on what kind of country you want.

And so OG makes one or two observations that disagrees with your view and he is now a Conservative. You're making arguments like a paternalistic liberal. Or as Nessus points out, a champagne socialist. (Thank you Ness...it explains so much)

Kiss my ass dick. I'm referring to the conservative position he's arguing for - I'm not going to pretend it isn't what it clearly is just because he's known to be liberal in other arguments. Sorry if that doesn't fit into the category you've pinholed him. Maybe you should be less close minded.

[EyeKhan]

I think people should stand to lose a lot if they didn't have the common sense to secure it. Middleclass is not a class that the government should be focusing on, just to make sure they stay middle class. I've seen that getting knocked down a rung or two helps people become more humble and protective with what they earn. I don't see why a household that makes $80,000 should get to double their child tax credit to "temporarily" avoid having to be a pinch.

A large percentage of the middle class could learn a lot after having to fend for themselves. Getting propped up by the government so they can avoid any discomfort doesn't solve a damn thing thats currently wrong with this country.
I have no problem with government program and support to those that have reached rock bottom and need help getting their head above water. I do have a problem with the government stepping in before the family even has to get their hands dirty.

Yes your brother is a textbook sob story. His family needs to sit down and reevaluate a lot of what they took for granted.
They should not expect the government to continue to fund their way of living.

I dont' even know where to begin. You are so completly disconnected from the reality of what you're talking about. Unbelievable. And by the way, nobody ever suggested the government should fund someones way of living or that the government IS funding it with the tax credit. If you think that little shit tax credit can fund the middle class lifestyle you're actually talking about - the big spenders maxing out their credit cards and driving two SUVs around - you're showing you have no clue.

Fend for themselves. Jesus Christ. What do you think is going on out there!?!?! Fuckinay.

[Ominous Gamer]

So, do you put yourself in that category, too? If you're accepting WIC, then what the hell are you doing planning a Disney Cruise?

My family won't be middle class for several years at our current pace.

Since we're not married the WIC ignores my contributions in the family. So both the WIC and Tax refund are solely the work of Brandy. Its not even a system we could slightly be accused of cheating. With the passports the cruise is going run us a little shy of $3,000. Thats less than half what Brandy is getting back, and the other half is going to knock out one of my two remaining credit cards. Putting us a little ahead of our schedule to be completely debt free.

Its Brandy's assistance, and Brandy wanted a vacation. She could use the tax refund and pay bills, and I would simply pay for the trip. In the end its all coming out the same.

It would lead to an interesting side dissucssion: What is the definition of The Middle Class?

I hate connecting an income amount to it. I always considered it to do with how much disposable income you spend on stuff you aren't expecting a return from. I've seen collectors worth hundreds of thousands, but living (happily) in an apartment thats cheaper than their storage unit.

[Hazir]

Funny to see a socio-economic term reduced to its economic component. Is this a particular American blind spot, the inability to understand that class is not just the money you make?

[GGT]

I'm confused about OG's posts and attitude toward the income vs lifestyle part....

[Hazir]

Oh, so it's not just me. It appears to me that being middle class never was about how much you spend, and only to a limited extent about how much you take home.

[Ominous Gamer]

Income isn't the only factor for social group you claim yourself to. You could be banking thousands, millions, but it doesn't make you upper class. Middle, and Upper class living requires a personal decision to accept. If you want to live in a $600 a month apartment, I don't care how much you're worth, or what you make. You're not Upper Class.

Middle and Upper class requires a will to spend, a decision that moving up is worth it. Being middle class and higher requires both a physical representation and mental commitment.

It works on the flip side to. Thats why so many people who believe(d) they were or are middle class when they aren't and likely never were. They think if they live behind the white picket fence, with the 2 car garage, and the 42" LCD, they are middleclass like their neighbors. Completely ignoring that at their current pace, or in a downturn, they have no hope in continueing their life style. They were simple afraid of living like the lower class; and karma came knocking and look where we are.

Recalls watching Fun with Dick and Jane.

[Veldan Rath]

And I didn't say you did fuck face.

Well you sure as hell implied it.

Thanks for the civics lesson, now my statement still stands. You buy civilization with taxes. How much you tax and how you tax depends on what kind of country you want.

You needed it.

And so does mine.

Kiss my ass dick. I'm referring to the conservative position he's arguing for - I'm not going to pretend it isn't what it clearly is just because he's known to be liberal in other arguments. Sorry if that doesn't fit into the category you've pinholed him. Maybe you should be less close minded.

Gods your impossible. Make up your mind then. The direction of your posts was that he was some evil conservative, but i f you're just saying that this particular argument of his sounds fiscally conservative, fine, I agree, but on balance from what I remember in other discussions, he has not been. But I have not pinholed him and I am always willing to re-evaluate and remember that personal politics are more than 2 dimensions.

Unlike you.

Oh and if 6k is a lilttle shit tax credit...what are you living on?!!!?....that over 10% of my annual income before taxes!


(breathing, breathing...pause...breathing)

Okay, now that Choobs and I are done with our hissy-fit...where were we?

[GGT]

No wonder you say you won't be middle class at your current pace, OG. Lifestyle is not just about income or spending, as much as it is about saving and making smart choices, and living within one's means.

It seems you also think the child tax credit should only be for those below middle class, the place you say you're at, and not a family making 80K/yr. Is that what you meant to say?

[Veldan Rath]

Oh, so it's not just me. It appears to me that being middle class never was about how much you spend, and only to a limited extent about how much you take home.

So what is it to you?