It's about the environment you grow up in and live in. It's about the mores those people share, which will express themselves through education and culture. And if you look and the financial side of it; a longterm ability to support that life style. Being middle class is not something that comes and goes with your paycheck.Originally Posted by Veldan Rath
Congratulations America
Is this thread now about defining social classes? And using that to determine who "deserves" to get a tax credit?
Has it been posted already somewhere else (if it has I apologize, am having difficulty maneuvering the new format), the SC LT Gov's remarks suggesting that giving breaks to certain people with kids is like feeding stray animals, and encourages them to breed?
Er... no? It's not my fault your word parser is broken. I said you get a subsidy for nothing -- just by the fact that you have kids, you get a subsidy. And you know that. Why should I even debate with you when you turn everything into a syntax battle?Ah, yes, post 8:
So you think of the cost and responsibility of raising a family, especially when the economy is in turmoil, as, well, as nothing.
Again, I said "to work less".And your argument is per-child tax credits encourages middle class parents not to work.
Voluntarily stupid? Look who's talking! The entire stated purpose of all these proposals was to increase the size of the middle class, and they fail at that.And that Obama's purpose for increasing this credit is to increase the size of the middle class.
Link that stated purpose was to increase the SIZE of the middle class?
I was under the impression that all this talk of tax credits/refunds/rebates was to put more money back in peoples' pockets, with the theory that they'll do one of two things: Save for their kids and/or retirement--which reduces future need for further government subsidy, or Spend it--which stimulates the general economy.
Cultural differences, I think. The US never really accepted a concept of hereditary classes. Our classes for the most part all look pretty similar outwardly, and the primary difference really is just money. For the most part, the biggest difference is that richer classes have more expensive things.
Interesting. You and OG seem to share the idea that income alone can define one's class status, while I seem to share Hazir's.
ie, You can win the lottery for eleventy billion dollars, but that won't make you Upper Class by default, if all you do is buy a bunch of gawdy stuff and velvet nude art. Alternatively, you can make median wage and live in a $600/month apartment and be Middle Class, if you value being educated and eat good bread.
Because you're not really talking about the different classes, you're talking about the ability to get to a certain class and/or stay there. I'm also not disagreeing that cost of living of your area factors in to which class you fall in. Or it should, anyways. The government disagrees.
OG should consider himself and his family's lifestyle as Middle Class, but he doesn't. Why not?
Also, I'm testing the multi-quote and double-click.
I don't know his situation well enough to comment authoritatively. I thought he mentioned that his family gets government assistance, so that could be it. I also hear he lives in a milk crate.
I don't really know either. OG, what say you?
You live in FL but you're spending hundreds of dollars on passports for kids, to take a Disney Cruise, yet you say--
No, in the end it doesn't all come out the same. Not as far as mind-set.My family won't be middle class for several years at our current pace.
Since we're not married the WIC ignores my contributions in the family. So both the WIC and Tax refund are solely the work of Brandy. Its not even a system we could slightly be accused of cheating. With the passports the cruise is going run us a little shy of $3,000. Thats less than half what Brandy is getting back, and the other half is going to knock out one of my two remaining credit cards. Putting us a little ahead of our schedule to be completely debt free.
Its Brandy's assistance, and Brandy wanted a vacation. She could use the tax refund and pay bills, and I would simply pay for the trip. In the end its all coming out the same.
Weren't you the one who was whining about people who live beyond their means and want the champagne lifestyle on a beer budget?
Lower class because I have no true cash savings, still owe almost $40,000 in debt, and I don't have a steady flow of middle class expenses.
I buy expensive things when I can (aka splurge), but I still keep to my budget
but we've driving a beater of a van that we're just waiting to implode on itself, while my "new" car is the lowest end model from a now desolved brand, and is beyond lease years (even if it does have all the trimmings)
we have an awesome house, but we're still SOG, closest thing Tampa has to a ghetto
I still wear stuff I used in high school
no cable, tivo, netflix
computer has 1 video card, none of my tvs or monitors can do 120hz, and none of the TVs are 1080p
haven't seen the inside of a mall in forever
or a movie theater
none of the rooms in the house have a theme, we own more furniture from charity than we purchased ourselves
I consider myself good on planning my money; we aren't for wanting, but thats a case of ignorance is bliss, not middle class. I have a budget, and I've learn quality of life wins over speeding up the time table of my budget. So if its over and extra, its time to enjoy life.
We are a family of 5 on ~$40,000 a year. How do you spin that into middle class?
Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 01-27-2010 at 01:16 AM.
hmm I'd never heard of SOG.
Let me get this right. You have a college degree (or at least some college level education), you work in Library Sciences, making at least national median wage, probably FL state wages twice the poverty rate, you upgraded to a home from an apartment, you own 2 cars, have posted about the fancy computer you just bought, plus all the games 'n things, you have 3 kids and a bunch of cats under one roof.....
But you won't get married because Brandy will lose subsidies, she takes WIC, you don't have any savings (NONE? Really?), you have $40,000 in debt.....
So you decide to spend $3,000 for a VACATION, and say you're good on planning your money?
Maybe you're right. This is not the middle class value system.
However, you seem to be the one trying to keep up with images and white picket fences. You want a child tax credit to afford living beyond your means, while criticizing anyone else with kids just because they make more money?
What?
Tried to make it a link. Does it show as one?
Walked out right before finishing, because of workLet me get this right. You have a college degree (or at least some college level education), you work in Library Sciences,
I don't own, and renting a home is no better, or more expensive than renting an apartment of the size rooms. I own a car and Brandy owns a dying van. We pay on one, and have absolute minimum coverage on the other. None of my games are bought at retail price, on the most part my play schedule is 2-3 years behind, I get more games from Steam clearance and Big Lots than anywhere else. We have 3 kids, on government assistance and free lunch.you upgraded to a home from an apartment, you own 2 cars, have posted about the fancy computer you just bought, plus all the games 'n things, you have 3 kids and a bunch of cats under one roof.....
I DON'T WANT THE ANIMALS.
Part of my budget, I worked us out of foodstamps, its one step at a time. It all comes to a head when the debt is gone and Brandy gets a ring.But you won't get married because Brandy will lose subsidies, she takes WIC,
No stuffed cash savings account no, I have between $40,000 - $50,000 in open credit. I know overall its a gamble, but I take the stance that anything with an interest rate higher than my savings bank rate gets paid before I save. I operate with a paychecks worth of spending room, thats more as a failsafe for an accidential double charge or such.you don't have any savings (NONE? Really?), you have $40,000 in debt.....
Quality of life spread over the childhood of kids. I plan the budget around firm paychecks. It works, anything else is for smiles.So you decide to spend $3,000 for a VACATION, and say you're good on planning your money?
Not at allMaybe you're right. This is not the middle class value system.
I'm happy where I'm at, cause the house is happy. We don't need to push for middle class. Like I said, Ignorance is Bliss. I know what I don't have, and what to aim for, but I don't need to ge there ASAP.However, you seem to be the one trying to keep up with images and white picket fences. You want a child tax credit to afford living beyond your means, while criticizing anyone else with kids just because they make more money?
I don't want a doubling of the tax credit. I originally posted about the $6000 Brandy is getting cause I thought that was a stupid amount. Parents that plan don't need it, and the parents that need it aren't going to use it on their kids. I support government assistance to the lower class, but not to stop the middleclass from becoming lower class.
Found the proof:
So basically, it's perfectly fine for you to receive handouts, but not for anyone who is actually trying to stay off assistance, keep their kids in neighborhoods with good schools, etc.
Instead of using the tax credit Brandy is getting to put her into a decent vehicle, it's much better to go on a Disney cruise.
Gotcha.
We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.
Wouldn't the handouts be assistance?
I just think people need to fall a little before they get propped up.
This isn't my call yet, she won't let go of that Ford. I've taken her car shopping god knows how many times. She just wants to go away.Instead of using the tax credit Brandy is getting to put her into a decent vehicle, it's much better to go on a Disney cruise.
Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 01-27-2010 at 02:06 AM.
Yes, to Urban Dictionary.
If you say that because of your personal experience, then you may be mistaken about everyone else. In the very least, you could use some financial advice and how to separate emotional desires from practical ones. Paying down debt is one of the best things you can do.....Walked out right before finishing, because of work
I don't own, and renting a home is no better, or more expensive than renting an apartment of the size rooms. I own a car and Brandy owns a dying van. We pay on one, and have absolute minimum coverage on the other. None of my games are bought at retail price, on the most part my play schedule is 2-3 years behind, I get more games from Steam clearance and Big Lots than anywhere else. We have 3 kids, on government assistance and free lunch.
I DON'T WANT THE ANIMALS.
Part of my budget, I worked us out of foodstamps, its one step at a time. It all comes to a head when the debt is gone and Brandy gets a ring.
No stuffed cash savings account no, I have between $40,000 - $50,000 in open credit. I know overall its a gamble, but I take the stance that anything with an interest rate higher than my savings bank rate gets paid before I save. I operate with a paychecks worth of spending room, thats more as a failsafe for an accidential double charge or such.
Quality of life spread over the childhood of kids. I plan the budget around firm paychecks. It works, anything else is for smiles.
Not at all
I'm happy where I'm at, cause the house is happy. We don't need to push for middle class. Like I said, Ignorance is Bliss. I know what I don't have, and what to aim for, but I don't need to ge there ASAP.
I don't want a doubling of the tax credit. I originally posted about the $6000 Brandy is getting cause I thought that was a stupid amount. Parents that plan don't need it, and the parents that need it aren't going to use it on their kids.
If Brandy wants a ring and a 3 grand vacation, instead of paying down family debt, she needs to re-prioritize. IMO. Take 1/3 of that for a nice local seafood dinner, a weekend at a local Hampton Inn, and a spa massage/pedicure/manicure. Put the rest toward paying off debt. That's a great gift to your kids by teaching them personal responsibility and how to "get ahead".
That makes no sense.I support government assistance to the lower class, but not to stop the middleclass from becoming lower class.
oops I meant to ask this in the last reply. An open credit line isn't the same thing as a debt balance. Pretty much anything is going to have an APR higher than your savings account interest. And operating on just one paycheck for 'failsafe' is a recipe for disaster.
Sorry, but that's just bullshit. If they have a home with 2 loving parents, plenty of nutritious food to eat, good schools to attend and/or decent child care, books to read (free even, from the Library), friends to play with, and access to a doctor for their physicals and vaccinations.....they don't need a Disney Cruise to enrich their lives.Quality of life spread over the childhood of kids. I plan the budget around firm paychecks. It works, anything else is for smiles.
Quality of Life spread out over a childhood can mean camping at a state park, or playing a Monopoly board game with popcorn, or sleeping in a tent in the living room with flashlights and books. Who are you trying to kid here?
The Disney Cruise sounds more like 'keeping up with the Joneses' to me too. And otherwise OG; am I getting it right in thinking that the only reason you were against that raise of the tax-credit for children is good old fashioned class-envy?
Congratulations America
Well on principle I'm opposed to the government monkeying around with the tax code to influence behavior. Of course it does make it a bit more financially feasible for me and my wife to have another kid.
Ah, a chink in the armor.
And that would be good for society.
Congratulations America
What, Lewk having ANOTHER kid?
Yes, that child most likely will be a tax-payer by the time you want to cash in your Social Security. Let him have three.
Congratulations America
Yeah...right..have kids to continue that ponzi scheme. Love the circular logic.
Also since we will be paying out ever increasing tax credits, spending programs, pork, bribes, and inefficiencies...I doubt there would be any money in SS by the time I would 'cash' in.
That's why I have 401k and a ROTH IRA.
I don't see how this makes any sense since I would be getting the same tax credit benefit. I just think people that aren't already on the bottom rung need to be given the opportunity to save themselves before the government needs to step in. Otherwise this becomes expected government behavior, and I see enough of that crap from the bottom feeders.
I've just been assuming that I'll never see any of the money I pay into social security again, and planning my life accordingly.
Why?
Yep, that's class envy, you don't want those who are marginally better off than you to suck at the state's teat, where you have no problems with the state offering it to your social stratum.
Congratulations America
Well, I sure as hell don't expect Social Security to pay my bills, but there will be other taxes to pay. Social Security was just to help you remind you'll be old and less productive one day.
That of course was for Veldan
Congratulations America
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