A Tale of Two Cities + A Christmas Carol

[GGT]

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.....

Charles Dickens was a champion of the maltreated poor because of his terrible experience when he was forced to work in a factory as a child. His sympathies, however, lie only up to a point with the revolutionaries; he condemns the mob madness which soon sets in. When madmen and -women massacre eleven hundred detainees in one night and hustle back to sharpen their weapons on the grindstone, they display "eyes which any unbrutalised beholder would have given twenty years of life, to petrify with a well-directed gun".

Bob Cratchit has been replaced by the calculator and computer. Tiny Tim is still lame and needing affordable care. 'Eating cake' might seem preferable to going hungry.

In England, even banks endorse unbalanced sentences: a man may be condemned to death for nicking a horse or opening a letter. Conditions in the prisons are dreadful. "Most kinds of debauchery and villainy were practised, and ... dire diseases were bred", sometimes killing the judge before the accused.

"Crush humanity out of shape once more, under similar hammers, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. Sow the same seed of rapacious licence and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit according to its kind"

My, how things change, yet remain the same.

[GGT]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40593905...s_and_economy/

http://www.businessweek.com/investor...215_516004.htm

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503983_1...33-503983.html

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE63E2EA20100415

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...ng-stores.html

http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2010/12/1...ok-still-rosy/

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2010/...tinue-to-rise/

[GGT]

Gosh, where did all the imagination and discussion go from this forum?

It's Christmas time. During a time of vast inequalities. Tiffany and Saks are reporting great profits. Banks and Wall Street are reporting their highest two year profits EVER. Their bonii is exceeding those from the height of the bubbles.

Yet

More people are needing food stamps or unemployment insurance just to make ends meet. The housing industry has lost $1.7 TRILLION dollars in wealth. 401-Ks and IRAs still haven't recouped losses from '07. Aging baby boomers can't afford health care as they live longer. Parents are choosing between antibiotics or vaccinations for their kids, their school districts, or going bankrupt.

And no one seems to know what to do....

[GGT]

Well. hmm. It's after midnight here, the bewitching hour comes with some leniency.

We can read all sorts of factoids or expert opinion. We can find historical facts, testaments, anecdotals, and "expert academic" studies and analyses. We can even spend tons of money and four (or more) years studying all these things. A degree may carry weight, but not always. Our experts surely know a lot, but sometimes they seem stupid.

(That's not an anti-elite statement, btw, just my observation of when academics begin to lose credibility.)

I saw a bit of hope when Obama decided to hold a summit of sorts, with Fortune 500 CEOs. Not in a political sense, but in a national sense. How to get America working, progressing. Probably the closest I've ever come to an FDR moment.

I've said it before but it wasn't taken very seriously, but our strategy can't be wrapped in "what can the government do for business" any longer. Business needs to step up to the plate, especially big business. And big banks. Those guys the tax payers bailed out, remember them?

Not to be stupid (again) but to free up capital for lending, innovation based on borrowing, venture capital. Hiring to expand, taking the risk at the outset instead of waiting for the consumer's demand. Maybe pay five people $50,000 instead of one person making $250,000. Those five guys could be better than one!

[oldmunchkin]

At the risk of pissing you off again....may I ask a question?

[GGT]

Since when have you been intimidated by asking questions, munchie?

[oldmunchkin]

Since when have you been intimidated by asking questions, munchie?

Since I got put into my "place".

Why don't you try putting your question into real life perspective?

EDIT: Check your PM's...Please.

[GGT]

Since I got put into my "place".

Why don't you try putting your question into real life perspective?

This entire thread is, indeed, based on real life perspectives. I thought it might be interesting to compare previous centuries with our 21st. Our society is still fraught with inequalities, but the foundations have supposedly changed. The chimney sweep or nanny has gained "respect" and a better wage. They can cite science. Poor children or orphans are no longer waifs begging for another bowl of gruel. The Cook can talk with the Banker, and not be belittled by status but empowered by knowledge. It is more of an exchange of knowledge now, than ever.

High powered bankers and brokers can hire nutritionists, chefs, trainers, nannies, teachers, kinesiologists, massage therapists, stylists, accountants, lawyers, etc. Why are they at the top of the pyramid, what do they DO that's more valuable or important than what others DO?

[oldmunchkin]

They do nothing...except have...money at their disposal! I am the poor beggar born a century late!

[GGT]

They do nothing...except have...money at their disposal! I am the poor beggar born a century late!

Oy. No, the comparison isn't quite right. You can read and write, you had a free public education, you're also smart and experienced. You have more power and value than you want to admit. You just refuse to use your power to get ahead, or you like to say the system is against you.

[GGT]

One great example of our "progress" as humans is what I call the Disney-Do. Once we started making and loving movies with heroic mice, dogs, cats, fish (or mermaids)....we had moved onto a new level. Something that simple reading of classic literature could no longer do. And why not, when contemporary literature is seen as the next great Hollywood blockbuster?

Now we have amusement parks with literary characters as a side show. People visit Colonial Williamsburg or Fort Louisbourg for entertainment; learning history or culture is secondary. We have period re-enactments all over the place, from Mount Vernon to Monticello or Gettysburg. Sold as Family Fun. Putt-putt golf courses and water parks nearby. Buy now and get a complimentary blacksmith souvenir (or waffle fries).

[oldmunchkin]

Yes, I have a free public education that my parents and grandparents paid for, thru taxes! (Right along with millions of other low- to- middle class Americans have for years!!!!!) I am also godddammed lucky in that I DO live in BFE Nowherer! If I lived in Denver....fuck even Casper...my level of education would significantly drop!

[GGT]

They do nothing...except have...money at their disposal! I am the poor beggar born a century late!

Yes, I have a free public education that my parents and grandparents paid for, thru taxes! (Right along with millions of other low- to- middle class Americans have for years!!!!!) I am also godddammed lucky in that I DO live in BFE Nowherer! If I lived in Denver....fuck even Casper...my level of education would significantly drop!

What's your point?

[oldmunchkin]

The point is....you always want to debate this shit, but never put it at a human level!

[GGT]

The point is....you always want to debate this shit, but never put it at a human level!

WTF?

1) This is not a debate. It's a discussion
2) The human level is right there, in all the links I posted, showing disparity
3) Literary comparisons to the human condition are timeless

WTF are you on about, munchkin?

[oldmunchkin]

What we have here is a failure to communicate!

What needs to happen is for Obama to have a "summit" with about 1000 people who have a yearly income of $15,000 or LESS! Then, maybe he could "get it" about surviving in the real world! This shit of...I met with the low income ($40 to 50,000) people is just that...SHIT! Until he actually adresses the REAL (read majority of Americans) public...then what the fuck good is this bullshit?

[GGT]

Wow, that came out of nowhere.

[oldmunchkin]

But it's true!

[GGT]

But it's true!

Decide which you want to discuss. Truth can be found anywhere. You want to talk about you and your life

Yes, I have a free public education that my parents and grandparents paid for, thru taxes! (Right along with millions of other low- to- middle class Americans have for years!!!!!) I am also godddammed lucky in that I DO live in BFE Nowherer! If I lived in Denver....fuck even Casper...my level of education would significantly drop!

or we can talk about society in general, with some personal reference, without taking every goddamn thing so personal.

[oldmunchkin]

Decide which you want to discuss. Truth can be found anywhere. You want to talk about you and your life or we can talk about society in general, with some personal reference, without taking every goddamn thing so personal.

Why can't it be both? Maybe, just because my experience is soooo different than yours, we can get both in the same discussion?! I AM society in general! Or don't you realize that? Unless you work for the government in some form, or are a doctor/nurse/researcher, or a fucking rocket scientist, chances are you are in my spot, just been in my spot, or will be in my spot in the near future!

[GGT]

Why can't it be both? Maybe, just because my experience is soooo different than yours, we can get both in the same discussion?!

Sure, we both have our anecdotes. Nobody has ever said your personal experiences are invalid.

I AM society in general! Or don't you realize that?

Sorry, but I don't think you represent the majority of Americans, let alone our society in general.

Unless you work for the government in some form, or are a doctor/nurse/researcher, or a fucking rocket scientist, chances are you are in my spot, just been in my spot, or will be in my spot in the near future!

Way to go, fuck up this thread and the topic, just so you can bring it all back to YOU.

[oldmunchkin]

Fine than...I will just quit!!!!