He doesn't have to explain himself, he has a gun
He doesn't have to explain himself, he has a gun
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
So of course people shouldn't buy bigger and better televisions because we are worried about where our old ones go to? This is the *point* of technological advances.Originally Posted by Illusions
No, people...for instance Randblade...should stop acting like the products significantly cost less. Yes, they cost less money, but they should be aware of where those costs are being made up. Where this applies is that if you take this into consideration, you won't be surprised in the future when these products stop costing less money because either the supplies are running low to produce them, or the countries involved in their production started paying their workers more, or treating them more fairly, or started to take better care of disposing of their industrial waste. Or at least it doesn't come as a surprise when we have $200 80" flat screen televisions, and large portions of China are an industrial wasteland populated largely by hundreds of millions of people who have the same sentiments as workers during the American Industrial Revolution...
. . .
This is timely.
Granite Countertop Craze Has Cost U.S. More Than First Gulf War
http://blogs.forbes.com/stephanefitc...atedstoriesbox
No, it doesn't show a lack of thought. It shows I've thought about it and dismissed your concerns.I'm actually pretty angered by this response as it shows a complete lack of thought going into this reply. Basically the hidden costs I was referring to are that in order for your product to be as cheap as it is, the costs of its production have to be reduced, which includes paying the workers who manufacture it pretty meager wages, having them work longer hours, or both, cutting corners on the disposal of the waste associated with the product's production, etc. You were able to pay less because of this. The product was cheaper, monetarily, but there was still a cost to produce it. Instead of having you absorb those costs via paying more money, other people, or even the environment were made to take them. China is pretty notorious for these things.
Globalisation has seen China grow exponentially, yes the wages may not be as good as what a 'westerner' gets but they are significantly better than how the Chinese lived pre-globalisation.
The idea that the costs are due to hidden costs is garbage, pure and simple. It is a simple case of competitive advantage. Without introducing even a single "external cost" - with meeting the same environmental standards, with wages better than the Chinese would otherwise have got etc, etc things will still be cheaper.
Recycle !=Reuse. In fact of the environmental 3 R's they're entirely seperate for that exact reason: Reduce, Reuse, Recycle.
The energy used to create something is an acceptable cost that we pay for. As for electronic waste, it is typical processed correctly and certainly with more concern for the environment than happened decades ago.
Hey, you're the one who mentioned "recycling" in your post about your plasma TV. Like I said, we don't have electronic waste recycling here. Do you?
Some cell service providers will take their old phones, to refurbish them and send on to poorer nations, when you buy a new one. Large appliances are taken away when we buy a new one, sometimes with a fee, but they're put in a landfill. There's a requirement to dispose of freon properly, but that's it.
I posted an article about this once; scavengers selling scrap electronics to sweat shops (mostly Spanish-only-speaking women in Texas) to "mine" the metals, working for about $5/hour. Some is shipped off in garbage barges for a price. No, those costs aren't added up front to the products we buy.
Can someone please post a link to one of those articles about how our old computers TVs etc are being dumped in third world countries rather than being properly recycled?
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
You need to take things in perspective, you need to look at the progress made due to the Free market, in all those societies that implore its use.I'm actually pretty angered by this response as it shows a complete lack of thought going into this reply. Basically the hidden costs I was referring to are that in order for your product to be as cheap as it is, the costs of its production have to be reduced, which includes paying the workers who manufacture it pretty meager wages, having them work longer hours, or both, cutting corners on the disposal of the waste associated with the product's production, etc. You were able to pay less because of this. The product was cheaper, monetarily, but there was still a cost to produce it. Instead of having you absorb those costs via paying more money, other people, or even the environment were made to take them. China is pretty notorious for these things.
One should note is people aren't going to do something if it's not beneficial. I'll give an example, China.. We might argue we should stop buying things from there until they change their human rights stances. China's biggest issues is how it runs it's businesses that's part of the reason the wages are horrible. As far as the Chinese people are concerned today, given the choice of not working and starving or working and living they'll generally choose living. When we buy stuff from china we are merely providing them with an extra job option, they don't have to take it, they can stay in their conditions and die, or find some other way to live, or we are giving them the option they can work for some low pay so they can get by. They are choosing to work because its better than all their other options available to them. For china's people and china itself, TODAY it is better if we buy from them. In the long run though you may be right, for example. Using China again. If the world decides not to trade with them, or all of us on an individual level (we get a lot of people) decide to not buy items, that are made in china, we will be hurting the people of China today, BUT we could argue we are helping them in the long run if we can make China accept our ultimatum and improve its conditions. Which will in turn as you say increase the costs for goods for us over here .
That's my first point. My second point is short. It's not the Free Markets fault that this is happening, it's not an inherant problem in a free market economy. The problem's root lies in China's goverment, and exploitation of its own people.
By in large the free market system improves everyone's circumstances, that is the very premise of trade.
I agree when it comes to Externalities that the free market doesn't provide a solution for them, but that's why goverment and individuals can have roles in dealing with them once we see the issues surface, such as global warming.
The recycle company in my area offers a free electronic dropoff twice a year at a local Aquarium's parking lot. They take computers, phones, printers, TVs, etc. They claim they are taking them to be properly recycled at another facility (I'll take their word for it).
I think if you have a recycling company in the area they may be able to put you in touch with someone who takes this stuff. That would be assuming that someone lives in an area that does this. Or that they care. I've driven in West Virginia, in the Blue Ridge Mountains, and have seen TVs, cars, fridges, at the bottom of ravines from where some local yokel has decided that will be their dumping ground. Lack of resources or education, take your pick.
Hmm. I had a point somewhere in there.....nevermind.
Oui WEEE
Whee, we don't. Nothing national or coordinated like that. (If you click on the Nat'l Geo article, then go to Learn More, you'll see it's a real problem for the US.) Following the Basel Action Network (BAN) e-Steward Initiative is voluntary, but at least we've got some companies starting a take-back program.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...in;contentBody
Hell, until last year my city didn't even take cardboard for recycling. I would take mine to work (a neighboring city) and throw it in their dumpster.
This one was about Euros
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
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