Germany and America

[Omega]

I was reading articles about Germany and I just realized how conservative they are, at least when compared to the other European nations.

If we use America as a meter stick, then Germany is a socialistic state, but if we use for example, France. Then Germany is clearly conservative. Germany's leader, and by extension its constituents, are somewhat opposed to governmental intervention, or to the degree at which France's government intervenes. Even fiscally, they are against behemoth bailouts because the private sector loses its independence to a certain degree.

Germany has also emerged as one of the world's strongest economy from the international meltdown. Their fiscal condition is guuud.

Anyways, i created a marginally well-reasoned hypothesis with the information i gathered. the hypothesis being, Germany is scared of government intervention because of what happened with Hitler under his nazi regime as much america is scared of big governments because of the british monarchy.

is probably why germany is so much more to the right than all of the other european nations? or am i just a caustic retard for thinking that?

[Knux897]

I don't understand you're last question could you please reword it?

[RandBlade]

I think that's ludicrous.

[Omega]

I don't understand you're last question could you please reword it?

Ummm, I guess i'm asking why germany is much more conservative than most european nations.

I think that's ludicrous.

oh, could you please explain why?

[Knux897]

Well I think you answered your own question then. I don't know anything about German politics and economics but I would assume there are some safeguards in place to prevent another totalitarian movement.

[NGS]

I think it's ludicrous that you would attribute an entire nation's political ideology to one factor.

[agamemnus]

I don't understand

your

[RandBlade]

oh, could you please explain why?

Because.

[Knux897]

I think it's ludicrous that you would attribute an entire nation's political ideology to one factor.

Although it undoubtly has influence...


On another note, this is an awkward thread

[Hazir]

It escapes me why you didn't include the UK, I also doubt Germany is much more conservative than countries like Denmark, Holland or Austria.

[Lewkowski]

We aren't scared of big government due to a British monarchy we are scared of big government because we value freedom.

[Nessus]

Joseph Goebbels valued freedom. You don't know what freedom is, you shit-bag.

[RandBlade]

Joseph Goebbels valued freedom. You don't know what freedom is, you shit-bag.

Your lies are really quite offensive sometimes

[Nessus]

Your lies are really quite offensive sometimes

Excuse me? Which part of that was a lie?

[Nessus]

Your lies are really quite offensive sometimes

I would like to explore this, for a moment. You are saying that I, a person whose livelyhood is founded on the pursuit of truth, knowledge and the real nature of this universe, you are claiming that I habitually lie to this community? Never once have I knowingly lied to this community, sparing that embarrassing detail about my gender, and you sit there in your smug *personally I have saved seventeen billion people from starvation* shouting about how I am a liar. Not once, not once have I told this community a lie. How dare you, how dare you to place this accusation upon me? What have I ever done to deserve this? What possible excuse do you have to justify this kind of awful, terrible behaviour?

Never once have I uttered a lie upon this forum, on these people. Not once. And after this hateful, scornful speech of yours? How blithely and quickly you summarize and dismiss me? I have never had high regard for you but this, this is a personal offence I cannot withstand. Go fuck yourself, Randy fucking Blade.

[Aimless]

Okay but I don't get it, in which way do you mean Goebbels valued freedom in the context of this particular topic? bear in mind that my knowledge of WWII is almost non-existant so I don't get clever points about that sorta thing.

[Omega]

I think it's ludicrous that you would attribute an entire nation's political ideology to one factor.

Enlighten me then. I'm not German, i just read a few articles and that's the vibe i seem to get from reading them.

Because.

...Wanna answer my question, please?

It escapes me why you didn't include the UK, I also doubt Germany is much more conservative than countries like Denmark, Holland or Austria.

I know nothing of England, Denmark, Holland, or Austria, can't really guesstimate with no information.

We aren't scared of big government due to a British monarchy we are scared of big government because we value freedom.

Well safeguards were placed by America's forefathers because they did not want a centralized institution presiding over them, the way the british king did. Isn't it realyl the same thing?

[Lewkowski]

I would like to explore this, for a moment. You are saying that I, a person whose livelyhood is founded on the pursuit of truth, knowledge and the real nature of this universe, you are claiming that I habitually lie to this community? Never once have I knowingly lied to this community, sparing that embarrassing detail about my gender, and you sit there in your smug *personally I have saved seventeen billion people from starvation* shouting about how I am a liar. Not once, not once have I told this community a lie. How dare you, how dare you to place this accusation upon me? What have I ever done to deserve this? What possible excuse do you have to justify this kind of awful, terrible behaviour?

Never once have I uttered a lie upon this forum, on these people. Not once. And after this hateful, scornful speech of yours? How blithely and quickly you summarize and dismiss me? I have never had high regard for you but this, this is a personal offence I cannot withstand. Go fuck yourself, Randy fucking Blade.

Nessus doth protest too much.

[EyeKhan]

WW2 resulted in the Japanese going from aggressive imperialistic warmongers to flat out pacifists. Shared horrors can, by observation, have huge affects on cultures. I don't think the hypothesis is necessarily ludicrous though probably not as simple as it sounds.

[Lebanese Dragon]

I will say Rand's reason of because was really rude, especially for a mod. He should just have not replied. I get that the idea is it's self explanatory, so why explain.

I would posit a better explanation. That being while perhaps the foundation of their new government very well had those fears in mind and built safetynets. We are fairly far removed from that time, and they're not going to be operating now with that fear in mind. They're not going to be like "oh, this move will open the door for another Hitler." They had early on perhaps placed some structural nets for that very purpose, but now they're operating with that not being in their minds, as to what they think is best for themselves/ their country.

I don't think it's remotely reasonable to say that they're all paranoid in every action they do, or all or even a significant amount of their actions are governed by their fear of past events. That just wouldn't be a well functioning goverment, it's not realistic or helpful to think that way. I agree in part, but modern day actions I would claim are very much done without any consideration for Hitler's regime.

[RandBlade]

I have always given you the benefit of the doubt that your fascist tendencies are a show. Either you are lieing when you say the author of the Kristallnacht, the Nazi minister for Propaganda, a man who personally was responsible for the deaths and oppression of millions, a man who stayed loyal to that authoritarianism right until the end when he personally murdered his six children ... either you're lying to say he's a man who valued freedom or you're a sick racist. You seriously think the Holocaust is freedom? Or were you lying?

As for language, you shouldn't call people shit-bag if you don't want to be called on your own bullshit. You're a hypocrite who lambasts others philosophy, uses strong language, but forbid anyone call you on it eh Nessus? Hypocritical liar.

[Nessus]

It's not bull-shit.

[RandBlade]

So murdering children is valuing freedom?
The Kristallnacht is valuing freedom?
The Third Reich valued freedom?

Yes its bullshit.

[Nessus]

Have I lied to you, Randy Blade? Have I once lied to you?

[RandBlade]

Have I lied to you, Randy Blade? Have I once lied to you?

Unless you genuinely believe that Goebels believed in freedom and that Lewk doesn't know what it means - yes.
Unless you're being 100% honest with your fascist tendencies - yes.

[Hazir]

Okay but I don't get it, in which way do you mean Goebbels valued freedom in the context of this particular topic? bear in mind that my knowledge of WWII is almost non-existant so I don't get clever points about that sorta thing.

Well, my knowledge of the period is quite extensive, and I would say it would take a lot of semantics to turn Goebbels into a champion of freedom. I'd be interested into how Nessus sees this.

I could understand someone accusing Lewk of not knowing the meaning of freedom, not that I would necessarily agree with such an evaluation .

[Hazir]

Enlighten me then. I'm not German, i just read a few articles and that's the vibe i seem to get from reading them.



...Wanna answer my question, please?



I know nothing of England, Denmark, Holland, or Austria, can't really guesstimate with no information.



Well safeguards were placed by America's forefathers because they did not want a centralized institution presiding over them, the way the british king did. Isn't it realyl the same thing?

It is certain that WWII had a huge impact on the psyche of Europeans in general. I think the main difference between Germans and the rest of us is that Germans are more inclined to view the period with a sense of guilt. Which is a lot less in other countries; a huge number of Brits would see that war, however miserable it was as something that represents one of their finer hours. But with that distinction put to the side; the War simply stands for a moment where Europe was doing its utmost to tear itself to shreds and the death toll still makes itself seen in today's population of the continent. Europe lost its innocence 70 years ago, and I think it became a place extremely adverse to the use of military force because of that.

I think the American mythology we're getting served here is a bunch of humbug. After the Glorious Revolution the British Crown never represented anything you could describe as a real monarchy. The struggle wasn't against a tyranny of a king but against a country with divergent interests accross the ocean.

[LittleFuzzy]

I think the American mythology we're getting served here is a bunch of humbug. After the Glorious Revolution the British Crown never represented anything you could describe as a real monarchy. The struggle wasn't against a tyranny of a king but against a country with divergent interests accross the ocean.

The interests weren't even really all that divergent. Many of the Colonials just objected to the idea of Britain exerting any sort of control over them, however minimal. They wanted extremely limited local government and that was it, and they realized it wouldn't work within about 10 years of managing to get it.

[Dreadnaught]

Not to mention that the British were basically expecting the place to be a massive market for their manufactured goods and source of raw material. It was an unequal relationship that every colonized entity wakes up to.

[Hazir]

Either way, to claim that it was a struggle against a tyrant is ridiculous. A revolution to put in place self-rule, yes, a revolution to remove an absolute monarch, no.