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Thread: Too Late To Stop the Flooding

  1. #1

    Default Too Late To Stop the Flooding

    Just saw this last night in Science. As you might have noticed in the last article I wrote, I've had a sense for a while that we'd already passed the point of no return for a lot of the effects of global warming. This study affirms that suspicion. So, when do you think the World will get around to preparing for the flooding? Oh, not until it looks like Brisbane out our front doors? Probably....

    Rising Seas Look Inevitable

    by Sid Perkins on 10 January 2011, 5:44 PM | Permanent Link | 1 Comments

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    Too late? Even if carbon dioxide emissions cease completely in 2100, warming in and around Antarctica (depicted in yellow and orange tones), as well as ocean warming there at depths between 500 and 1500 meters, will continue until the end of the millennium.

    Credit: Gillett et al., Nature Geoscience, Advance Online Publication (2011)

    It may be too late to stop the seas from eventually rising and flooding Earth's coastlines. Even if humans manage to eliminate carbon dioxide emissions completely by the year 2100, ocean warming set in motion by the end of this millennium could trigger the collapse of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet and flood New York City, Hong Kong, and other coastal cities, a new study suggests.

    Sea level rises when meltwater from land-based masses of ice, such as glaciers, flows into the ocean. But sea level also increases when heat from the atmosphere gets mixed into the upper layers of the ocean, causing that water to expand. In recent decades, this thermal expansion has provided, on average, only about one-quarter of the 1.8 millimeters of sea level rise seen each year, but its contribution is increasing, studies suggest.

    Now researchers point to an even bigger threat from warm ocean waters. The floating ice shelves that ring Antarctica could melt. So could the seaward end of land-based ice streams. That would lead to a long-term, catastrophic rise in sea level.

    The new analysis, conducted by Nathan Gillett, a climate scientist at the University of Victoria in Canada and his colleagues, considers a rosy scenario. The team assumes that carbon dioxide emissions will rise at moderate rates from now until 2100, when people will switch to renewable energy sources and stop producing carbon dioxide. In this scenario, atmospheric concentrations of the greenhouse gas peak at about 770 parts per million (approximately twice today's level of approximately 390 ppm), Gillett says. Even though no new humanmade carbon dioxide emissions are produced after 2100 and terrestrial and marine ecosystems continue soaking it up, carbon dioxide levels remain above 550 ppm for the next 9 centuries. Oceans will be slow to soak up the atmospheric carbon dioxide, and terrestrial ecosystems—many of which have been storing carbon gradually for centuries—will begin to release some of that carbon after the year 2200, the model suggests. As a result, ocean warming persists throughout the millennium, the researchers reported online yesterday in Nature Geoscience.

    Much of that warmth is mixed directly into surface seas by wave action. But some is injected into deeper ocean layers by the thermohaline circulation, a pattern of ocean currents that carries warm, salty water from the North Atlantic southward to the Antarctic. Overall, the team's model suggests that the temperature of waters surrounding the icy continent at depths between 500 and 1500 meters will rise approximately 3˚C between the years 2105 and 2995. Add that to an Antarctic surface warming of as much as 9˚C since the mid-1800s, and that's a recipe for melting ice. At particular risk is the West Antarctic Ice Sheet, a 2.2-million-cubic-kilometer, potentially unstable ice mass that sits on the sea floor at depths where Antarctic waters are warming the most.

    Ocean warming alone will result in 25 centimeters of sea-level rise by 2100 and 1 meter by 3000, the researchers estimate. But if warming waters melt the major ice shelves of western Antarctica, which act like dams to hold immense quantities of ice on shore, the entire western portion of the Antarctic ice sheet could melt away. Previous studies hint that such a collapse could boost sea level as much as 4 meters, swamping coasts worldwide.

    The team's analysis "looks like a solid study, and the most interesting new result is the tie to the West Antarctic Ice Sheet," says Richard Alley, a climate scientist at Pennsylvania State University, University Park. Human-caused warming, he says, could influence Antarctica's land ice many centuries after we stop burning fossil fuels.
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  2. #2
    Just Floatin... termite's Avatar
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    I'd welcome some fucking rain thank you very much!
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  3. #3
    No but yeah but no but it hasn't been proven, and all these climate scientists do is disagree with each other, and I reckon it's getting colder look at how much snow we've had this year I mean come on global 'warming' yeah right, oh, and liberals.

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  4. #4
    Senior Member Lor's Avatar
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    Fear mongers

  5. #5
    I want warmth! Now, damn it!
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  6. #6
    Sucks to be Southern these days, eh? This is just winter as usual in Michigan. Starting to snow right now, in fact. We're supposed to get 3-6" by tomorrow morning.... I like it because it covers up all the yellow snow and dog shit.
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  7. #7
    Isn't it sort of difficult to predict the level of water increase if we don't really know the amount of ice which is actually on top of land? I thought that was always sort of a grey area in these types of calculations. Because it's only ice sitting on land that we really have to be concerned about.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Draco's Avatar
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    Sounds scary.
    Reminds me of the movie A.I where New York is lost to the sea:

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Isn't it sort of difficult to predict the level of water increase if we don't really know the amount of ice which is actually on top of land? I thought that was always sort of a grey area in these types of calculations. Because it's only ice sitting on land that we really have to be concerned about.
    I think they have a pretty good idea how much ice is on land, don't they?
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco View Post
    Sounds scary.
    Reminds me of the movie A.I where New York is lost to the sea:
    Great movie, btw. It was actually a Stanely Kubrick project but he wasn't feeling healthy enough to direct it and asked Spielberg to do it. That's why when you watch it you're all the time scratching your head thinking "this doesn't feel like a Spielberg movie."

    Note - I seriously doubt the statue of liberty would still be standing in all that sea water.
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  11. #11
    Senior Member Evidently Supermarioman's Avatar
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    As bad as it is, I really doubt it would put New York or Hong Kong underwater. They would build seawalls well before that happened.
    It's the other long term effects on ocean life and weather conditions that concern me more.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Supermarioman View Post
    As bad as it is, I really doubt it would put New York or Hong Kong underwater. They would build seawalls well before that happened.
    OTOH we're not all that good at planning in advance these days, so one wonders if there would be enough time once we finally decided to believe the worst really was going to happen. How long would it take to build a giant sea wall around NYC? Relating to Lady Liberty, I wonder if they would move it rather than let it get flooded or build a sea wall around the island. Or maybe build up the platform she's on so she stood above the water....

    Regarding the movie, I thought it was cool they still occupied the portions of the buildings above water, something as unlikely as the statue still standing. And I don't think anyone has predicted the water getting that deep either.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Just saw this last night in Science. As you might have noticed in the last article I wrote, I've had a sense for a while that we'd already passed the point of no return for a lot of the effects of global warming. This study affirms that suspicion. So, when do you think the World will get around to preparing for the flooding? Oh, not until it looks like Brisbane out our front doors? Probably....
    Backs my theory that building flood defences may prove more sensible than cutting emissions then.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Backs my theory that building flood defences may prove more sensible than cutting emissions then.
    Probably both would be most prudent. The question with emissions limits now isn't will there be flooding, etc, but how bad will the effects get and how long will they last? Being unable to stop the flooding no matter what we do probably shouldn't be looked at as a free ticket to produce as much CO2 as we want....
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  15. #15
    I find it interesting that the same people who are unwilling to trust the findings of economics due to the inherent methodological challenges are so willing to accept all findings of climatology, which are based on models at least as flawed as those of economics. That's not to say that the findings here are entirely wrong, but there are numerous problems with data gathering, data aggregation, statistical methods, and ability to predict, and these will probably lead to massive changes in climatology theories as the field matures. But we all know the real reason people here are willing to put all their faith in climatology and not economics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Isn't it sort of difficult to predict the level of water increase if we don't really know the amount of ice which is actually on top of land? I thought that was always sort of a grey area in these types of calculations. Because it's only ice sitting on land that we really have to be concerned about.
    I know that predicted probabilities have numerous flaws in political science, and given that the statistical models in climatology are no better than the ones in poli sci, I find it hard to believe that predictions can be made as easily as they are.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Isn't it sort of difficult to predict the level of water increase if we don't really know the amount of ice which is actually on top of land? I thought that was always sort of a grey area in these types of calculations. Because it's only ice sitting on land that we really have to be concerned about.
    You saw how the article estimated anywhere from 1m to 4m right? Thats a huge range of meltoff.

  17. #17
    Have you heard of the fallacy of trying to estimate the effect of something beyond that of the available range of data? If we're looking at the effect of education on income, and everyone in the study makes from $20k to $50k, we can't reliably predict the effect of education for an individual who makes less than $20k or more than $50k. Since the kind of carbon dioxide levels predicted in the study have never existed, I fail to see how anyone can make reliable predictions about their effects.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  18. #18
    Loki - you promised you weren't going to talk to me anymore. What gives?
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Probably both would be most prudent. The question with emissions limits now isn't will there be flooding, etc, but how bad will the effects get and how long will they last? Being unable to stop the flooding no matter what we do probably shouldn't be looked at as a free ticket to produce as much CO2 as we want....
    Indeed, I don't disagree, but nor should we throw the baby out with the bathwater chucking everything into curbing CO2 emissions.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Indeed, I don't disagree, but nor should we throw the baby out with the bathwater chucking everything into curbing CO2 emissions.
    Aw, you know we won't do that.
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  21. #21
    Senior Member Draco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Great movie, btw. It was actually a Stanely Kubrick project but he wasn't feeling healthy enough to direct it and asked Spielberg to do it. That's why when you watch it you're all the time scratching your head thinking "this doesn't feel like a Spielberg movie."

    Note - I seriously doubt the statue of liberty would still be standing in all that sea water.
    Yep I really liked the movie

    Would the sea water corrode it or something though?

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    I think they have a pretty good idea how much ice is on land, don't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    You saw how the article estimated anywhere from 1m to 4m right? Thats a huge range of meltoff.
    I think it's a huge range based on very variable and difficult-to-observe variables. The landmass is somewhat speculative given how difficult it is to survey land beneath that much ice. Plus there have been some observations of massive sub-glacial lakes in Antarctica.

    My point is not to deny that this may be a problem, but emphasize that it only *may* be a problem. Which doesn't preclude us preparing in various ways.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco View Post
    Yep I really liked the movie

    Would the sea water corrode it or something though?
    Corrosion would definitely go to work on it. Plus currents, wave action, pressure, especially at the base. I don't know how long it would last, but It would not be very long.
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  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I think it's a huge range based on very variable and difficult-to-observe variables. The landmass is somewhat speculative given how difficult it is to survey land beneath that much ice. Plus there have been some observations of massive sub-glacial lakes in Antarctica.

    My point is not to deny that this may be a problem, but emphasize that it only *may* be a problem. Which doesn't preclude us preparing in various ways.
    not knowing how much will melt is not the same as not knowing how much is there. I think they've used some very sophisticated satellite imaging and penetrating radar to get an excellent estimate of how much ice there is.
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  25. #25
    It's just about how much ice there is, but how much of it is over land. Because the net impact of melting ice that's already in the ocean is minimal. Water that's on land that goes into the ocean is different.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Timbuk2 View Post
    No but yeah but no but it hasn't been proven, and all these climate scientists do is disagree with each other, and I reckon it's getting colder look at how much snow we've had this year I mean come on global 'warming' yeah right, oh, and liberals.

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  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Dattu View Post
    Lewkowski = Vicky Pollard? Hmmm...
    Well spotted that man.

    Ranting and raving in one continuous breath is Vicky Pollardesque, so the no but yeah seemed to fit right in.

    Whether Lewk = Vicky ... well ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    It's actually the original French billion, which is bi-million, which is a million to the power of 2. We adopted the word, and then they changed it, presumably as revenge for Crecy and Agincourt, and then the treasonous Americans adopted the new French usage and spread it all over the world. And now we have to use it.

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  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    It's just about how much ice there is, but how much of it is over land. Because the net impact of melting ice that's already in the ocean is minimal. Water that's on land that goes into the ocean is different.
    I understand that. You're still not making any sense.
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  29. #29
    As an intersting footnote, I was listening to a news story about the 2010 temperatures on NPR last night and the interviewee - not sure who it was but if someone cares the program was All Things Considered yesterday - was confirming that 2010 was yet again one of the hottest years on record (I think I posted on that somewhere a few weeks ago) and he also said, which I hadn't heard before, that 2010 was the "wettest" year ever recorded, wet referring to rain and snow. The temperature readings go back to 1880 or something but the precipitation records only go back to, iirc, the 1930s. Wet indeed, think of the huge snowstorms and the rain and flooding all over the world last year. Michigan had the best summer for farmers last year more or less ever. Record crop yeilds...
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  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Michigan had the best summer for farmers last year more or less ever. Record crop yeilds...
    Oh no! The utter horror, we must stop this. All Michigan should be allowed to have is a failed car industry.

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