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Thread: Haiti Hell

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Quote Originally Posted by aoshi
    I can't believe there are selfish people in America who are refusing to give money to these poor people who not only are going through a tragedy NOW, but have had it hard for a long time. I gave a reasonable amount of money to the cause. This is just terribly sad.
    The problem is not 'American beings selfish' The problem is that the Haitians in 206 years of state-hood could not get their act together. Sure the death toll is horrible, but my Istanbul experience taught me a profound lesson; Earthquakes are an act of God, living on top of a vaultline and being totally unprepared is a an act of Man

    Let's also not forget that the other part of that island there is a state that, even though not exactly rich , manages to function with a modicum of effectiveness.
    Congratulations America

  2. #32

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Hazir, yes I've "visited" places with abject poverty. The Bahamas, Jamaica, Trinidad (well, just their airport), Barbados and Mexico--they have a lot of poverty and misery. I'm not enured to that.

    Watching the dumping of bodies is disturbing in so many ways. They know they get hurricanes and, as islanders, they've dealt with rainy seasons and shore problems, and logistical problems with garbage removal.

    That's why they prefer above ground crypts (much like Louisiana). These mass graves are going to be a HUGE problem. They may have covered them with dirt, which can delay the spread of disease, but underground decomposition (without embalming) is going to come back to haunt them. They already have problems with fresh drinking water.

    I'm trying to figure out why they didn't have some ceremonial pyres, to cremate the bodies. Even during a horrible catastrophe, a few level-headed leader types usually manage to make decisions like that.

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Over the last 206 years Haiti has not had able leaders. Where should these leaders come from and what could they do now that what little infrasturcture they had lies in tatters?
    Congratulations America

  4. #34

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir
    Over the last 206 years Haiti has not had able leaders. Where should these leaders come from and what could they do now that what little infrasturcture they had lies in tatters?
    If they've been living without able government leaders, or any real infrastructure, for over 200 years, then their family leaders have played an even more important role. They've kept their families together, figuring out how to provide shelter/food/water, on a daily basis. They've been through natural disasters over and over, it's not like this is their first one....but it's the biggest and on a massive scale.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Like I said; an earthquake is an act of God, being totally unprepaired is an act of Man.
    Congratulations America

  6. #36

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    More of an act of plate tectonics.
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint
    More of an act of plate tectonics.
    Is this the time to start hackling over idiom?
    Congratulations America

  8. #38

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    You seem so pleased with that one you posted it twice.
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint
    You seem so pleased with that one you posted it twice.
    As you may well have understood the emphasis was on the lack of preparation of people who were living on a vault line, not on divine intervention. The idiom 'act of God' as I see is a legal concept rather than a reference to God.
    Congratulations America

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT
    1) I heard some people suggest making Haiti a US Territory like Puerto Rico. How well would that go over?

    2) They are uneducated, it's obvious. I'm not familiar with their French/English hybrid language, but it's almost like our southern pigeon English, or ebonics. I saw a picture of a Ministry Office building and the sign said MINNUSTAH

    3) Is it harder to deal with corruption there, than any other corrupt place we deal with?
    MINUSTAH is an acronym for the UN mission in Port-au-Prince (Mission des Nations Unies pour la Stabilisation en Haïti), not the word for ministry in their version of French.
    Congratulations America

  11. #41

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Well yeah when natural disasters strike third world countries it is bound to magnify the tragedy. I don't have any problem with the United States using its resources to assist. These are children who are suffering, yes their parents are probably somewhat to blame for their shoddy government and poor ability to react to something like this but it is hardly their fault.

  12. #42

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Hatiti's hell did not start when that earthquake stuck.

    People think the United States of America are being so good to the people of Haiti.

    It started the day it was born.

    I think people should have longer memories. Everyone seems have to forgotten the history of Haiti. We owe these people far more than we are prepared to give.

    Why The US Owes Haiti Billions
    by Bill Quigley
    Why does the US owe Haiti Billions? Colin Powell, former US Secretary of State, stated his foreign policy view as the “Pottery Barn rule.” That is: “if you break it, you own it.”

    The US has worked to break Haiti for over 200 years. We owe Haiti. Not charity. We owe Haiti as a matter of justice. Reparations. And not the $100 million promised by President Obama either – that is Powerball money. The US owes Haiti Billions – with a big B.

    The US has worked for centuries to break Haiti. The US has used Haiti like a plantation. The US helped bleed the country economically since it freed itself, repeatedly invaded the country militarily, supported dictators who abused the people, used the country as a dumping ground for our own economic advantage, ruined their roads and agriculture, and toppled popularly elected officials. The US has even used Haiti like the old plantation owner and slipped over there repeatedly for sexual recreation.

    Here is the briefest history of some of the major US efforts to break Haiti.

    In 1804, when Haiti achieved its freedom from France in the world’s first successful slave revolution, the United States refused to recognize the country. The US continued to refuse recognition to Haiti for 60 more years. Why? Because the US continued to enslave millions of its own citizens and feared recognizing Haiti would encourage slave revolution in the US.

    After the 1804 revolution, Haiti was the subject of a crippling economic embargo by France and the US. US sanctions lasted until 1863. France ultimately used its military power to force Haiti to pay reparations for the slaves who were freed. The reparations were 150 million francs. (France sold the entire Louisiana territory to the US for 80 million francs!)

    Haiti was forced to borrow money from banks in France and the US to pay reparations to France. A major loan from the US to pay off the French was finally paid off in 1947. The current value of the money Haiti was forced to pay to French and US banks? Over $20 Billion — with a big B.

    The US occupied and ruled Haiti by force from 1915 to 1934. President Woodrow Wilson sent troops to invade in 1915. Revolts by Haitians were put down by US military — killing over 2000 in one skirmish alone. For the next nineteen years, the US controlled customs in Haiti, collected taxes, and ran many governmental institutions. How many billions were siphoned off by the US during these 19 years?

    From 1957 to 1986 Haiti was forced to live under US backed dictators “Papa Doc” and “Baby Doc” Duvlaier. The US supported these dictators economically and militarily because they did what the US wanted and were politically “anti-communist” — now translatable as against human rights for their people. Duvalier stole millions from Haiti and ran up hundreds of millions in debt that Haiti still owes. Ten thousand Haitians lost their lives. Estimates say that Haiti owes $1.3 billion in external debt and that 40% of that debt was run up by the US-backed Duvaliers.

    Thirty years ago Haiti imported no rice. Today Haiti imports nearly all its rice. Though Haiti was the sugar growing capital of the Caribbean, it now imports sugar as well. Why? The US and the US dominated world financial institutions — the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank — forced Haiti to open its markets to the world. Then the US dumped millions of tons of US subsidized rice and sugar into Haiti — undercutting their farmers and ruining Haitian agriculture. By ruining Haitian agriculture, the US has forced Haiti into becoming the third largest world market for US rice. Good for US farmers, bad for Haiti.

    In 2002, the US stopped hundreds of millions of dollars in loans to Haiti which were to be used for, among other public projects like education, roads. These are the same roads which relief teams are having so much trouble navigating now!

    In 2004, the US again destroyed democracy in Haiti when they supported the coup against Haiti’s elected President Aristide.

    Haiti is even used for sexual recreation just like the old time plantations. Check the news carefully and you will find numerous stories of abuse of minors by missionaries, soldiers and charity workers. Plus there are the frequent sexual vacations taken to Haiti by people from the US and elsewhere. What is owed for that? What value would you put on it if it was your sisters and brothers?

    US based corporations have for years been teaming up with Haitian elite to run sweatshops teeming with tens of thousands of Haitians who earn less than $2 a day.

    The Haitian people have resisted the economic and military power of the US and others ever since their independence. Like all of us, Haitians made their own mistakes as well. But US power has forced Haitians to pay great prices — deaths, debt and abuse.

    It is time for the people of the US to join with Haitians and reverse the course of US-Haitian relations.

    This brief history shows why the US owes Haiti Billions — with a big B. This is not charity. This is justice. This is reparations. The current crisis is an opportunity for people in the US to own up to our country’s history of dominating Haiti and to make a truly just response.

    (For more on the history of exploitation of Haiti by the US see: Paul Farmer, The Uses of Haiti; Peter Hallward, Damning the Flood; and Randall Robinson, An Unbroken Agony).
    You do not become a dissident just because you decide one day to take up this most unusual career. You are thrown into it by your personal sense of responsibility, combined with a complex set of external circumstances. You are cast out of the existing structures and placed in a position of conflict with them. It begins as an attempt to do your work well, and ends with being branded an enemy of society.
    Havel, Vaclav

  13. #43

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Okay, I can't find the link to the article again now, and I'm much too lazy to scroll up in IRC until I find it, but even after sleeping I'm still ticked off about this.

    One of the Americans who are missing in Haiti is a 23 year old girl from Georgia who goes to college in Florida. She went to Haiti on some short-term school-sponsored humanitarian thing and was apparently in the Hotel Montana at the time of the quake. Last night I heard an interview with her understandably distraught father, who was demanding that there should be 1000 Marines looking for "our lost children." I saw another article dealing with the man making a very big deal out of the 18 dead Americans in Haiti, that also mentioned that 2000 Americans had gotten out. The comments area on both articles, from two different local news sits, were filled with people who agreed with the man. There wasn't a single comment when I was looking that pointed out that it was best to help as many people as possible without focusing attention on only saving a small handful of Americans.
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  14. #44

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Lolli, I think that father was reacting to reports of other Americans getting priority rescue. The US Embassy made sure to get their employees out within the first 48 hours, and even Citi flew in a private plane with a rescue team to save their bank workers.

  15. #45

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    His daughter is more than likely dead, GGT. She was in the collapsed hotel.
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  16. #46

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Quote Originally Posted by littlelolligagged
    His daughter is more than likely dead, GGT. She was in the collapsed hotel.
    It was reported last night that two more people were pulled live from the Hotel Montana on Monday. It's a remote a possibility, but several have been recovered even 6 days after the quake.

    The coverage from that grocery store rescue was amazing....she sat up and was driven away with just some injured fingers

  17. #47
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    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    I know I've said before how desensitized I am to the news, but when I saw those pictures of the hundreds of bodies just sitting in a lot because there are no morgues, and imagined the smell, I threw up in my mouth.

    It's simply unbelievable what's going on down there now.
    I enjoy blank walls.

  18. #48

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Gah, the Baby Doc emergency relief fund. Curse the Duvaliers. May they rot in hell (or the tectonic equivalent thereof.)


    On another note, I actually grew up with (and played soccer with) sons of a Hatian family that had prospered under Duvalier (and fled thereafter.) Oblivious to it at the time, of course. The father was a physician, and I think they had a bunch of money.

  19. #49

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Five-year-old boy rescued alive from Haiti rubble: CNN

    PORT-AU-PRINCE, Jan 20 (AFP) Jan 20, 2010

    A five-year-old boy was brought alive to a hospital here Wednesday having been pulled from the rubble of his home eight days after the Haiti earthquake, the boy's uncle told CNN.

    The uncle said he found the boy in a small void in the rubble of the house where his mother and father were believed to have died.

    "He is being cared for very well by the doctors within the international medical corps, and other than being severely dehydrated and dysphoric, they don't know anything else that is wrong with him, and they believe he will make it," a CNN reporter at the hospital said.

    On Tuesday, three survivors were pulled from the rubble, including a 25-year-old woman found in the ruins of a sumpermarket and a 70-year-old woman who sang as she was brought out of the wreckage of the Port-au-Prince cathedral.

    A three-week-old baby was found alive in the rubble of a house in Jacmel in southern Haiti Tuesday, after surviving for a week without food, French radio reported on Wednesday.

    A UN spokeswoman in Geneva said earlier Wednesday that international teams have rescued 121 people from the debris of collapsed buildings since the quake.
    Wow

  20. #50

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Dissident... cry more please.

    Every time crap happens to a third world country its always the west fault. Africa, South America and parts of Asia are not poor because of the West. Whining and pointing the finger at the country that is delivering the *most* aid is pathetic.

  21. #51

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Earth to Lewk: Haiti is "west," Lewk. Same hemisphere as us. Got it?

  22. #52

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Look at the connotation. When I use the term "West" I don't mean every country in the western hemisphere. Germany is western but look at a globe. It is a cultural issue not a geographical issue.

  23. #53

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski
    Dissident... cry more please.

    Every time crap happens to a third world country its always the west fault. Africa, South America and parts of Asia are not poor because of the West. Whining and pointing the finger at the country that is delivering the *most* aid is pathetic.
    In times of crisis those with ability to lend aid have the moral obligation to do so. It's one of those 'makes us different from the animals' things. Even though animals will give aid to each other occassionally.
    The worst job in the world is better than being broke and homeless

  24. #54
    After reading Loki's article about Diplomacy, and learning that our Secretary of State felt compelled to make an announcement about our role in the humanitarian aid effort in Haiti......

    well it's just very difficult for the "average" person to figure out what's Diplomacy and what's Politicking. The two are so fused together, power and money.

    It's almost like asking which came first, the chicken or the egg.

    Everyone wants to argue about the hen house, the grain feed, the farmer, the buyer, the fox that eats the chickens or the birds that eat the eggs, or how to take the stuff to market and and

    Cock-a-doodle-doo

  25. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by rumrunner View Post
    In times of crisis those with ability to lend aid have the moral obligation to do so. It's one of those 'makes us different from the animals' things. Even though animals will give aid to each other occassionally.
    Absolutely we should send aid.

  26. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Dissident... cry more please.

    Every time crap happens to a third world country its always the west fault. Africa, South America and parts of Asia are not poor because of the West. Whining and pointing the finger at the country that is delivering the *most* aid is pathetic.
    Ok, explain to me where this is wrong:

    http://www1.american.edu/TED/haitirice.htm

    I hadn't heard of this previously, so enlighten me.
    I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
    I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
    Which is what I am

    I aim at the stars
    But sometimes I hit London

  27. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Look at the connotation. When I use the term "West" I don't mean every country in the western hemisphere. Germany is western but look at a globe. It is a cultural issue not a geographical issue.
    "Context," you brain-dead troglodyte.

  28. #58
    What happens when it rains in Haiti? Will all their huts and latrines just wash away? What about all the people laying on the ground with injuries? Will all the hospital tents be rendered useless?

    Where will all the blood and biological debris "go"?

  29. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    What happens when it rains in Haiti? Will all their huts and latrines just wash away? What about all the people laying on the ground with injuries? Will all the hospital tents be rendered useless?

    Where will all the blood and biological debris "go"?
    Probably to a place near you.
    Congratulations America

  30. #60

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