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Thread: Haiti Hell

  1. #1

    Default Haiti Hell

    The levees have broken, the tide rushes in, death and destruction, chaos and anarchy ensue.

    What a horrible humanitarian mess. Do I need to post a link to an article, or can we just discuss this ongoing nightmare as it unfolds?

    One of the most disturbing images was on NYT, a slide show of the piles of dead bodies, with a baby on top, looking like a ragdoll in a diaper. But it was a real person, a baby!

    Who can do that kind of thing, just dump bodies in piles? This isn't the Killing Fields during a war. Who the hell uses bulldozers to scoop up bodies and dump them in mass graves?

    Civil War medicine, field triage, they're amputating limbs without general anesthesia, on the side of the road. Poorest country in the western hemisphere. Desperation at its height.

    Yet, yesterday I overheard some asshole at the barber shop, saying "We've got problems of our own, we can't take care of the world, our military has become Meals on Wheels!"

    FFS that sounds like something Limbaugh would say....

  2. #2

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Normally I would agree that the USA/UK do too much meddling in the affairs of other countries (ESP. In illegal wars) but I don't think there is such a thing as 'too much help' after natural disasters in poor countries. Shame on whoever said that
    How do you expect to run with the wolves at night when you spend all day sparring with the puppies?

    - Omar Little

  3. #3

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    The problem is that people constantly overestimate just how much the US spends on foreign aid. In polls, many people think it's as much as 15% of GDP (which would be about $1.8 trillion). In reality, it's about 1% of GDP, and much of that is either given for political reasons (i.e. Israel and Egypt), or has massive strings attached (i.e. you have to use the aid money to buy American products).
    Hope is the denial of reality

  4. #4

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    The problem is that people constantly overestimate just how much the US spends on foreign aid. In polls, many people think it's as much as 15% of GDP (which would be about $1.8 trillion). In reality, it's about 1% of GDP, and much of that is either given for political reasons (i.e. Israel and Egypt), or has massive strings attached (i.e. you have to use the aid money to buy American products).
    Or do your darndest to prevent women from having abortions

    etc

    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    That too. Though that was mainly Reagan, Bush Sr., and Bush Jr.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  6. #6

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    The problem is that people constantly overestimate just how much the US spends on foreign aid. In polls, many people think it's as much as 15% of GDP (which would be about $1.8 trillion). In reality, it's about 1% of GDP, and much of that is either given for political reasons (i.e. Israel and Egypt), or has massive strings attached (i.e. you have to use the aid money to buy American products).
    If you're taking the money side of it, or % of GDP, then wouldn't it make more financial sense to 'Nation Build' on the front end, instead of the back end?


    ooo I like this feature here, telling me a new post was made while I was typing mine!

  7. #7

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    What do you mean by the front end?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  8. #8

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    What do you mean by the front end?
    Infrastructure (including sanitation and potable water) and education and healthcare. Helping a third world nation move up a tier.

    Yeah yeah, I know we're not so good at that, even in our own country.

    But in the very least, we could have helped with simple building improvements, teaching them how to avoid the concrete structures that killed so many with the quake. Instead of having to rush in with the expensive after-care.

    Haiti has had a horrible history of corruption in government. I vaguely remember Papa Doc and Baby Doc and Arastide (sp?). The US has some 10,000 NGOs over there, trying to help. That only goes so far, as we see now.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Tried that before. The country is too poor, too corrupt, too uneducated, and generally too unwieldy. To even start to fix the place, you'd need a huge long-term occupation and take-over of the key ministries, and needless to say, that doesn't happen anymore.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  10. #10

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    Tried that before. The country is too poor, too corrupt, too uneducated, and generally too unwieldy. To even start to fix the place, you'd need a huge long-term occupation and take-over of the key ministries, and needless to say, that doesn't happen anymore.


    1) I heard some people suggest making Haiti a US Territory like Puerto Rico. How well would that go over?

    2) They are uneducated, it's obvious. I'm not familiar with their French/English hybrid language, but it's almost like our southern pigeon English, or ebonics. I saw a picture of a Ministry Office building and the sign said MINNUSTAH

    3) Is it harder to deal with corruption there, than any other corrupt place we deal with?

  11. #11

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    And life in Haiti was hell before the earthquake, GGT. I'm sure if you asked most Haitians they wouldn't feel that their life has become much worse in the past week. Hell, the fact that they are suddenly getting aid workers might even make things a little better.

    And you have to admit that a quick death by natural disaster beats a slow death by starvation or (easily treatable/preventable) disease.

    I think it is great that the world is focused on Haiti right now. It's just a pity that when this mess is cleaned up Haiti will still be one of the most miserable places on earth to live. Just throwing aid at them isn't the answer.
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT
    1) I heard some people suggest making Haiti a US Territory like Puerto Rico. How well would that go over?

    2) They are uneducated, it's obvious. I'm not familiar with their French/English hybrid language, but it's almost like our southern pigeon English, or ebonics. I saw a picture of a Ministry Office building and the sign said MINNUSTAH

    3) Is it harder to deal with corruption there, than any other corrupt place we deal with?
    1. Not well. Haitians have a complex relationship with the US, but they definitely don't want the US to exert real political control over the place.

    2. The Haitian language is a combination of French and African dialects, so that might actually be the real spelling.

    3. Yes, because the place is dirt poor. In Haiti, corruption is a matter of survival.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  13. #13

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Short term, this is awful and we should help. This seems to have been basically confined to the capital (whoops! it was built on a fault line) and the government seems to be rapidly melting away.

    Long term, I think the region is going to have a lot of problems with Haiti if they can't put together a cohesive government. They couldn't before -- if they can't after this, they will become a major regional burden.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    (avoiding the quote right now because it's confusing me)

    Lolli: of course I know their life was hell before, dirt poor, fist-to-mouth. But they could function daily, even in that pitt, find some form of work ($1/day), buy water and food, sustenance. Now that's all kaput. They're so confused they're refusing the UN nutrition bars, because they're looking at the made date and thinking it's the expiration date. No, that's not better than what they had before.

    Loki: not sure the corruption angle explains it all away. The Bahamas and Jamaica has corruption, too. You would know more of the political history, maybe you can fill us in?

  15. #15

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    You can have different levels of corruption. In the other places, you have corruption over government contracts mostly, which means public funds aren't being spent as wisely as they should. In Haiti, we're talking about near complete looting of the country. A huge portion of the aid and other government funds simply disappears, and the government doesn't even have the infrastructure in place to spend that money properly even if it wanted to.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  16. #16

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT
    (avoiding the quote right now because it's confusing me)

    Lolli: of course I know their life was hell before, dirt poor, fist-to-mouth. But they could function daily, even in that pitt, find some form of work ($1/day), buy water and food, sustenance. Now that's all kaput. They're so confused they're refusing the UN nutrition bars, because they're looking at the made date and thinking it's the expiration date. No, that's not better than what they had before.
    They really couldn't, though. Unless eating dirt qualifies as sustenance in your mind.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/1 ... 68339.html
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Quote Originally Posted by littlelolligagged
    They really couldn't, though. Unless eating dirt qualifies as sustenance in your mind.
    I'm not ignoring how horrible their lives were before. Half their population is children, and most of them die before their 5th b-day, or orphans all over the place.

    I'm saying that THIS situation is even worse, piles and PILES of dead bodies. No ability to get outside the epicenter, no functional government/infrastructure to help either.

    (this doesn't show the entire history of posts, so....)

    Was it you (or someone else) who said this catastrophe is a blessing in disguise, because it may finally get them the help they needed? What a crappy way to get global attention, huh.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    You can have different levels of corruption. In the other places, you have corruption over government contracts mostly, which means public funds aren't being spent as wisely as they should. In Haiti, we're talking about near complete looting of the country. A huge portion of the aid and other government funds simply disappears, and the government doesn't even have the infrastructure in place to spend that money properly even if it wanted to.
    Sounds like Somalia.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT
    Quote Originally Posted by littlelolligagged
    They really couldn't, though. Unless eating dirt qualifies as sustenance in your mind.
    I'm not ignoring how horrible their lives were before. Half their population is children, and most of them die before their 5th b-day, or orphans all over the place.

    I'm saying that THIS situation is even worse, piles and PILES of dead bodies. No ability to get outside the epicenter, no functional government/infrastructure to help either.

    (this doesn't show the entire history of posts, so....)

    Was it you (or someone else) who said this catastrophe is a blessing in disguise, because it may finally get them the help they needed? What a crappy way to get global attention, huh.
    All I said is quick death is better than slow death by starvation. It won't get them the help they need. They actually already get a fairly substantial amount of aid that is used poorly by the corrupt government.
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Quote Originally Posted by littlelolligagged
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT
    Quote Originally Posted by littlelolligagged
    They really couldn't, though. Unless eating dirt qualifies as sustenance in your mind.
    I'm not ignoring how horrible their lives were before. Half their population is children, and most of them die before their 5th b-day, or orphans all over the place.

    I'm saying that THIS situation is even worse, piles and PILES of dead bodies. No ability to get outside the epicenter, no functional government/infrastructure to help either.

    (this doesn't show the entire history of posts, so....)

    Was it you (or someone else) who said this catastrophe is a blessing in disguise, because it may finally get them the help they needed? What a crappy way to get global attention, huh.
    All I said is quick death is better than slow death by starvation. It won't get them the help they need. They actually already get a fairly substantial amount of aid that is used poorly by the corrupt government.
    Is that where the abortion angle popped in?

    Quick death is always better than slow starvation, see the Schiavo case.

    Maybe we do need these extreme situations to force us forward? Forward, in the context of Haiti, means asking a whole bunch of really uncomfortable questions intertwined with politics.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT
    Who can do that kind of thing, just dump bodies in piles? This isn't the Killing Fields during a war. Who the hell uses bulldozers to scoop up bodies and dump them in mass graves?
    Did you SEE the estimated death toll? And how much time had relief and rescue crews had to work when that picture was taken?
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  22. #22

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    it's unimaginable to think what it takes from your soul to have to treat the dead like this. It's neccessary to prevent further spread of disease, but it takes a toll on you nonetheless.
    The worst job in the world is better than being broke and homeless

  23. #23

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT
    Who can do that kind of thing, just dump bodies in piles? This isn't the Killing Fields during a war. Who the hell uses bulldozers to scoop up bodies and dump them in mass graves?
    Did you SEE the estimated death toll? And how much time had relief and rescue crews had to work when that picture was taken?
    Yes, Fuzzy, I saw. It's a loaded question, I admit. But it's not aimed at any one group, let alone the rescue workers. It's a chaotic and horrendous scene there, and I'm not trying to place blame in one spot.

    But whoever touched that baby's dead body in the first place, could have tried to wrap the corpse. In something. Maybe they did, maybe they used whatever was at hand, a cardboard box that came loose in transit?

    I also saw images of the mass dumping graves, where corpses show up in empty refrigerators.

    The whole thing is disturbing. I know it's lame to sit in my living room and watch tv and wonder where the leaders and coordinators are. I want to scream at the tv, get a bullhorn, start some small pocket of decency, drop water and shrouds from helicopters, damn the fear of riots, DO SOMETHING.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT
    Who can do that kind of thing, just dump bodies in piles? This isn't the Killing Fields during a war. Who the hell uses bulldozers to scoop up bodies and dump them in mass graves?
    Did you SEE the estimated death toll? And how much time had relief and rescue crews had to work when that picture was taken?
    Yes, Fuzzy, I saw. It's a loaded question, I admit. But it's not aimed at any one group, let alone the rescue workers. It's a chaotic and horrendous scene there, and I'm not trying to place blame in one spot.

    But whoever touched that baby's dead body in the first place, could have tried to wrap the corpse. In something. Maybe they did, maybe they used whatever was at hand, a cardboard box that came loose in transit?

    I also saw images of the mass dumping graves, where corpses show up in empty refrigerators.

    The whole thing is disturbing. I know it's lame to sit in my living room and watch tv and wonder where the leaders and coordinators are. I want to scream at the tv, get a bullhorn, start some small pocket of decency, drop water and shrouds from helicopters, damn the fear of riots, DO SOMETHING.
    The workers' time is probably better spent dealing with the needs of the living, not dressing up the dead.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus
    The workers' time is probably better spent dealing with the needs of the living, not dressing up the dead.
    From what the news says, very few "workers" are there yet. They certainly were not there before the photojournalists clicked those pics.

    I read a report that desperate people are signing up (with whom I don't know) to transport corpses from the streets, to mass graves, being paid $100/day. For a populace that's been living on $2/day, that's gold. Who is paying them?

    Even in the aftermath of the Sri Lanka tsunami, there was a coordinated effort to log numbers and faces, taking pictures of the dead before being placed in mass graves.

    Dignity for the dead can be accomplished, even in the face of horror. If this is a condemnation (by default) of the Haitian government, and its corruptions, then so be it.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    it's hard to condemn anyone at this point, from so far away. I'd like to to think that more could be done in order to document the identities of the dead. Disasters bring out the best and the worst of humanity, and on this scale horror could just be the best you can hope for.
    The worst job in the world is better than being broke and homeless

  27. #27

    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    It's a shame that the Haitian government is apparently so corrupted. It would be wise for the US to track exactly what happens with our tax dollars.

  28. #28
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT
    From what the news says, very few "workers" are there yet. They certainly were not there before the photojournalists clicked those pics.

    I read a report that desperate people are signing up (with whom I don't know) to transport corpses from the streets, to mass graves, being paid $100/day. For a populace that's been living on $2/day, that's gold. Who is paying them?

    Even in the aftermath of the Sri Lanka tsunami, there was a coordinated effort to log numbers and faces, taking pictures of the dead before being placed in mass graves.

    Dignity for the dead can be accomplished, even in the face of horror. If this is a condemnation (by default) of the Haitian government, and its corruptions, then so be it.
    Yeah, but you also need to get rid of the bodies ASAP because it's a massive sources of diseases.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    I'm going to say something that isn't going to make me very popular, but I find myself really not caring all that much.

    Also CGT, you appear to have no idea of what a real 3rd world country is. In such a country things only work for you if you are filthy rich. And as you may be aware that's a very small group of people in Haiti. The Haitian government is a joke during its best days, how can you expect to do any better after the pitance of an infractructure they had was wiped out?
    Congratulations America

  30. #30
    When first I appear... aoshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Haiti Hell

    I can't believe there are selfish people in America who are refusing to give money to these poor people who not only are going through a tragedy NOW, but have had it hard for a long time. I gave a reasonable amount of money to the cause. This is just terribly sad.

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