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Thread: A shit storm over an unpopular Hait opinion

  1. #31
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    So, no one is poor in the US who doesn't match on of those three criteria?
    Thank you for that rigorous argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    duh because if your system focused on taking care of people then they wouldn't drop out of schools make babies as teens and get hooked on drugs, sheesh
    And what does this have to do with a country's economic system?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  2. #32
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Thank you for your valuable contribution.
    If you tolerate this, then your children will be next.

  3. #33
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    loki is also one of those forest-for-the-trees people

    i don't know how he's gotten the idea that the only significant obstacle to finishing highschool is MONEY

    what, has he forgotten life? family? neighbourhood? psyche?

  4. #34
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    And what does this have to do with a country's economic system?
    what, are you saying that a capitalistic system naturally includes good social care?

  5. #35
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Thank you for that rigorous argument.
    The point obviously went sailing over your head.

    Spoiler:
    specify what you mean by 'best indicators'
    If you tolerate this, then your children will be next.

  6. #36
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    what, are you saying that a capitalistic system naturally includes good social care?
    No, I say the quality of a country's education system is not dependent on the country's economic system (unless it's a communist state, in which case the education system suffers). If America became socialist tomorrow, the quality of its education wouldn't magically change; neither would the approach teachers take to students.

    And as usual, you totally miss the point. The reality is that the reason main reasons for poverty in this country are entirely dependent on those people's individual decisions. You can't blame the economic system here for individuals choosing not to complete high school.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    No, I say the quality of a country's education system is not dependent on the country's economic system (unless it's a communist state, in which case the education system suffers). If America became socialist tomorrow, the quality of its education wouldn't magically change; neither would the approach teachers take to students.
    Haha, we've been here before. America probably has more socialistic aspects to its economy than capitalistic aspects.
    .

  8. #38
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    No, I say the quality of a country's education system is not dependent on the country's economic system (unless it's a communist state, in which case the education system suffers). If America became socialist tomorrow, the quality of its education wouldn't magically change; neither would the approach teachers take to students.
    Of course you wouldn't get change over-night, what kind of an idiot expects people and societies to change over-night when they've developed over many years?? Sheesh, get real Loki.

    I must admit btw that I don't understand why you think kids dropping out of highschool mostly has to do with the quality of education and with the "approach teachers take to students". It's almost as if you forget that life for most people consists of far more than school, even for kids. It's almost as if you forget the socio in socioeconomic and the psychosoci in psychosocial, ending up only with economic and al.

    And as usual, you totally miss the point. The reality is that the reason main reasons for poverty in this country are entirely dependent on those people's individual decisions. You can't blame the economic system here for individuals choosing not to complete high school.
    as usual you miss the point by virtue of being absurdly blind and forgetting that individuals don't make decisions in a vacuum. a person who drops out of highschool has already lived at least seventeen years, but you choose to completely ignore that, thus missing the point.

  9. #39
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    And you continue to ignore the fact that the variables that make people drop out are mostly rooted in the American culture (or some American sub-cultures), and therefore cannot be changed by altering the economic system.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  10. #40
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    And you continue to ignore the fact that the variables that make people drop out are mostly rooted in the American culture (or some American sub-cultures), and therefore cannot be changed by altering the economic system.
    nonsense, i'm not ignoring that, you are

    so tell me, how can we go about modifying american culture or those sub-cultures you mention in such a way as to reduce the number of people becoming poor due to dropping out of highschool??

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    nonsense, i'm not ignoring that, you are

    so tell me, how can we go about modifying american culture or those sub-cultures you mention in such a way as to reduce the number of people becoming poor due to dropping out of highschool??
    If there was an easy solution, it would presumably be undertaken already.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  12. #42
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    If there was an easy solution, it would presumably be undertaken already.
    ah so we're only dealing with EASY solutions here!! didn't realise those were the rules of this game.

    ah capitalism...

  13. #43
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    ah so we're only dealing with EASY solutions here!! didn't realise those were the rules of this game.

    ah capitalism...
    Pardon me for not thinking that brainwashing people into wanting to be identical to each other is a solution.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  14. #44
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Pardon me for not thinking that brainwashing people into wanting to be identical to each other is a solution.
    you may be in the wrong thread, but brainwashing people into wanting to be identical to happy productive non-criminal members of society is probably an excellent solution!! perhaps you could bring about something akin to that by changing attitudes in society and developing better welfare (better for the US I mean, I guess that would be quite different from what might work in eg. Sweden or HOLLAND).



    i am astonished though to see such caution from someone who has always believed that any aspect of human behaviour on all scales can be significantly modified by assigning monetary rewards and punishments!! are you no longer that man??







    The most important message to take home from this thread is that you are only concerned with easy answers and easy solutions. Loki, I am disappoint

    not surprise, just disappoint

  15. #45
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    WAITAMINNIT



    you crazy crazy man

    If there was an easy solution, it would presumably be undertaken already.
    how on EARTH can you say that, living as you do in a country that wastes more money on healthcare than does any other country on earth because of a refusal to implement easy solutions???

  16. #46
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    People are already given massive incentives to finish school. Not all children are smart or responsible enough to respond to such incentives. At some point, adding more incentives doesn't increase the amount of people who are persuaded by them.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  17. #47
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    People are already given massive incentives to finish school. Not all children are smart or responsible enough to respond to such incentives. At some point, adding more incentives doesn't increase the amount of people who are persuaded by them.
    "at some point"? surely you mean "over a decade after birth, in a place outside the family"?? come on man, let's strive to speak clearly here



    you are once again trying to sneakily simplify the issue, but why not just tell me exactly what those cultural aspects are that make people drop out of highschool?? you mentioned them earlier, and you are an american citizen, so i assume you have some idea of what they are. you've conceded that they're the big villains (although suddenly you bring up smartness and sense of responsibility, probably due to a subconscious desire to pat your own hairy back ), so help me understand what they are!!

    and then you and I and GGT can muse on what can be done about those big villains.

    i bet it's better welfare

  18. #48
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    The idolization of the gang life, sports, and music (as careers) in certain sub-cultures. The "uncoolness" associated with actually doing work. Parents always defending their children when the latter are criticized by teachers (i.e. at parent-teacher conferences). A general "live in the present" culture. It's not a coincidence that the groups in the US who do best when it comes to education and economic situation are either immigrants (from good backgrounds) or people from sub-cultures that are in some way insulated from the dominant culture.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  19. #49
    Impracticaly practical. Cracky's Avatar
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    ^Don't forget excessive consumerism. Not that "I want that thing so i'l work really hard for it" kind, but rather the "I want that thing so i'l take out a loan or two" kind...

    Fiscal responsibility seems to be at an all time low.



    But i guess that's what you meant by live in the presenet...

  20. #50
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The idolization of the gang life, sports, and music (as careers) in certain sub-cultures.
    let's work out ways to tackle the idolisation of gang life!!

    The "uncoolness" associated with actually doing work.
    let's help make school fun and cool! from first grade!

    Parents always defending their children when the latter are criticized by teachers (i.e. at parent-teacher conferences).
    wait, you're saying this is one of the major reasons why some kids drop out of highschool?? okay, i guess i'll buy it...

    Let's give teachers better tools and more opportunities (than criticising kids at PT-conferences) to help kids develop!!

    let's give more parents the means to become more active and happy parents, eg. by reducing their stress and lack of security eg. through BETTER WELFARE

    A general "live in the present" culture.
    due to the future being so damn' uncertain of course let's fix that as well, so that people can dare to hope.

    It's not a coincidence that the groups in the US who do best when it comes to education and economic situation are either immigrants (from good backgrounds)
    let's give more kids good backgrounds

  21. #51
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cracky View Post
    ^Don't forget excessive consumerism. Not that "I want that thing so i'l work really hard for it" kind, but rather the "I want that thing so i'l take out a loan or two" kind...

    Fiscal responsibility seems to be at an all time low.



    But i guess that's what you meant by live in the presenet...
    And the government is certainly setting a great example.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  22. #52
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    now that we've sorted that out let us tackle the other two indicators in your unholy indicators of poverty trifecta




    How do keep people from getting addicted to drugs?

    How do we stem the epidemic of teenage pregnancies??

  23. #53
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    And the government is certainly setting a great example.
    the little i know of your government's spending has to do with healthcare, but surely that's not the same as eg. a giant LCD-TV or a trip to Disneyland...

  24. #54
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    the little i know of your government's spending has to do with healthcare, but surely that's not the same as eg. a giant LCD-TV or a trip to Disneyland...
    Or having a $1.4 trillion budget deficit for two straight years, which should decrease to a minuscule $600 billion after the economy recovers.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  25. #55
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    see? it's going in the right direction! reward progress

  26. #56
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    [QUOTE=Aimless;5101] It's almost as if you forget the socio in socioeconomic and the psychosoci in psychosocial, ending up only with economic and al.

    Huh. That's probably the best "Loki in a nutshell" summary I've ever seen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    People are already given massive incentives to finish school. Not all children are smart or responsible enough to respond to such incentives. At some point, adding more incentives doesn't increase the amount of people who are persuaded by them.
    But here we have all this evidence that by far the best intervention place for at risk kids in before they start kindergarten, yet that "easy" choice hasn't been taken.

  27. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by ']['ear View Post
    But here we have all this evidence that by far the best intervention place for at risk kids in before they start kindergarten, yet that "easy" choice hasn't been taken.
    Actually, the data for that has been ambiguous at best. I've seen an article showing that Head Start has an effect in the first several years after kids finish it, but the effect is pretty much gone before they finish high school. A good start would be to stop passing people who don't have a specific set of skills by a certain grade level. The amount of kids that get to high school without being able to read properly or know anything but the most basic math is appalling. And obviously these people are going to struggle in high school, and some will take the easy way out.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  28. #58
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Actually, the data for that has been ambiguous at best. I've seen an article showing that Head Start has an effect in the first several years after kids finish it, but the effect is pretty much gone before they finish high school.
    hello did anyone say anything about head start? like, slow down tiger

  29. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    er why should foreign aid be stopped asap??

    or did you mean AIDS
    No, I mean aid, the socalled aid to under-developed/developing countries.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  30. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    hello did anyone say anything about head start? like, slow down tiger
    That's the main program geared at helping people from disadvantaged environments before kindergarten...
    Hope is the denial of reality

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