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Thread: A shit storm over an unpopular Hait opinion

  1. #61
    Impracticaly practical. Cracky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    the little i know of your government's spending has to do with healthcare, but surely that's not the same as eg. a giant LCD-TV or a trip to Disneyland...
    It's about the same as a person who can barely pay his bills donating $1k to charity.

    Nice? Perhaps. But smart, reasonable, responsible? No way.

  2. #62
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    It is a myth. Think about it.

    Suppose you'd worked as hard as you could to get as high as you can in your current employer. Suppose everyone else in the business does the same. Does that mean it'll end up with nothing but managers? I would hope not, for its sake. There's a finite number of well paying jobs in the economy. We can't all be rock stars, managers and doctors: someone has to clean toilets and collect garbage.
    Ah but there is the rub. You can work for what you want to attain. Other people can do the same. However people have different goals, different views, abilities, talents and motivations. For some people working 70 hours a week is worth it if they move higher up the food chain. For others it is now. The wonderful part of the capitalist system is that the *individual* gets to choose how much effort they put in. And since no one puts in 100% (as far as I can see) of all of their time working/improving/learning there will always be a portion of the blame attributed to the individual himself for not being successful.

  3. #63
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    That's the main program geared at helping people from disadvantaged environments before kindergarten...
    looking back i can see that tear's post implies that the best way to help at-risk kids is through short interventions at a very early age, so i guess he WAS talking about Head Start after all. The data is ambiguous, but the studies have been iffy as well. the best one (which indicated that HS was great for certain groups of three-year-olds in particular) had a control group where like 60% of the kids were in some OTHER kind of intervention programme

    but that's a short-term intervention, and from what i've gathered it doesn't change the kids' family's situation in the long term. big surprise, then, that the effect vanishes over the course of ten or so years!
    Last edited by Aimless; 01-31-2010 at 09:11 AM.
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  4. #64
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Ah but there is the rub. You can work for what you want to attain. Other people can do the same. However people have different goals, different views, abilities, talents and motivations. For some people working 70 hours a week is worth it if they move higher up the food chain. For others it is now. The wonderful part of the capitalist system is that the *individual* gets to choose how much effort they put in. And since no one puts in 100% (as far as I can see) of all of their time working/improving/learning there will always be a portion of the blame attributed to the individual himself for not being successful.
    sneaky lewkowski, you forgot "different lives"! and how bizarre, you exclusively focus on the individual and on the blame that can be placed on the individual, and completely ignore the individual's context. his family, his upbringing, his school, his society. the mistakes made at early stages that end up punishing him forever. it's almost as if you'd like to pretend those things don't matter.

    it's almost as if you'd like to pretend that those things can't be changed!

    but of course you'd like to believe that, it lets you hate on taxes while still pretending to be a virtuous man
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  5. #65
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    sneaky lewkowski, you forgot "different lives"! and how bizarre, you exclusively focus on the individual and on the blame that can be placed on the individual, and completely ignore the individual's context. his family, his upbringing, his school, his society. the mistakes made at early stages that end up punishing him forever. it's almost as if you'd like to pretend those things don't matter.

    it's almost as if you'd like to pretend that those things can't be changed!
    Uh, there's very little in those areas that is impossible for the individual to overcome.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  6. #66
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    it's only legitimate if it's IMPOSSIBLE??

    bizarre

    not saying i accept the premise of course
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  7. #67
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    it's only legitimate if it's IMPOSSIBLE??

    bizarre

    not saying i accept the premise of course
    Considering the thesis under discussion here is the "myth" of whether anyone CAN succeed, it strikes me as relevant. "Anyone" is not the same as "everyone" and yes, as you point out, the emphasis is heavy on the individual.So is the culture.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  8. #68
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    whether or not you see it as a myth depends on what absurd/extraordinary lengths you expect people can/will go to i guess
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  9. #69
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    to clarify, i was under the impression that the thesis under discussion was the myth that anyone can pull themselves up from any level to any level by their own bootstraps more or less without help.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    to clarify, i was under the impression that the thesis under discussion was the myth that anyone can pull themselves up from any level to any level by their own bootstraps more or less without help.
    Obviously not "any level" but anyone can become a "success." Circumstances of course matter but the great thing about America is that there is social mobility. Many of our richest did not come from great wealth.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Actually, the data for that has been ambiguous at best. I've seen an article showing that Head Start has an effect in the first several years after kids finish it, but the effect is pretty much gone before they finish high school. A good start would be to stop passing people who don't have a specific set of skills by a certain grade level. The amount of kids that get to high school without being able to read properly or know anything but the most basic math is appalling. And obviously these people are going to struggle in high school, and some will take the easy way out.
    Old news. Head Start is outdated and fairly ineffective. There are newer and much more effective programs.

  12. #72
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Ah but there is the rub. You can work for what you want to attain.
    Which you may not achieve, thanks to circumstances beyond your control.

    However, think about how this system ties into nation-states and their ability to build expensive earthquake defenses.
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  13. #73
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Which you may not achieve, thanks to circumstances beyond your control.

    However, think about how this system ties into nation-states and their ability to build expensive earthquake defenses.
    Or the huge number of NGOs that have taken up the slack from an ineffective Haitian government. There are some reports that the citizens want the US to come in and re-build, not just assist their government. Kind of a semantic dilemma too, since they didn't have sophisticated electrical, water, sewerage to begin with.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Which you may not achieve, thanks to circumstances beyond your control.

    However, think about how this system ties into nation-states and their ability to build expensive earthquake defenses.
    May I point out that Haiti is on the island of Hispaniola. On this island we find one other state; The Dominican Republic with a GDP per capita of $8,200. Haiti, which roughly has the same predisposition as its neighbour has a GDP per capita of $1.300

    To me it seems that if, as a nation, Haiti would have put in an effort then they could have managed to do a little better than they are doing. As targets go the Dominican Republic isn't exactly the highest you could go for to overtake.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  15. #75
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    Which you may not achieve, thanks to circumstances beyond your control.
    But when you do not achieve your goal you need to ask yourself, "Did I do everything I could have?" If the answer is no, then quit blaming other people. Work harder, work smarter, better yourself and go at it again.

  16. #76
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    But when you do not achieve your goal you need to ask yourself, "Did I do everything I could have?" If the answer is no, then quit blaming other people. Work harder, work smarter, better yourself and go at it again.
    When did we stop talking about the Haitians? What're they going to do, huh? Walk another ten miles farther to find drinking water that comes from a relief agency?

  17. #77
    Impracticaly practical. Cracky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    When did we stop talking about the Haitians?
    Somewhere in the first page, apparently...

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    When did we stop talking about the Haitians? What're they going to do, huh? Walk another ten miles farther to find drinking water that comes from a relief agency?
    What about taking the example of their direct neighbours who don't live in abject poverty despite the fact they are sharing the same island with its crappy limited resources?
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  19. #79
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    What about taking the example of their direct neighbours who don't live in abject poverty despite the fact they are sharing the same island with its crappy limited resources?
    What about that? Critics have been comparing them for a long while, but it won't make a whit of difference in the beginning stages of a true crisis situation. You're talking long term concerted effort in planning, legislation, reworking decades of inefficiencies, and massive international funding.

    Rather hard to do when they're still figuring out how to bulldoze bodies in mass graves and find clean drinking water, as well as creating make-shift communities out of sheets hung by sticks.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    What about that? Critics have been comparing them for a long while, but it won't make a whit of difference in the beginning stages of a true crisis situation. You're talking long term concerted effort in planning, legislation, reworking decades of inefficiencies, and massive international funding.

    Rather hard to do when they're still figuring out how to bulldoze bodies in mass graves and find clean drinking water, as well as creating make-shift communities out of sheets hung by sticks.
    So what difference is it going to make if in the long run they consistently refuse to do anything to make their lives better? The first obvious positive step for any person would be to leave Port-au-Prince, because it's a dangerous place to live and no longer has even the rudiments of an infrastructure. The only reason to stay there is that it's closest to the places where food and water are handed out for free. How's that for proof that these people have got themselves to blame for not getting ahead.

    If they want to live in the shit they made themselves, I'm quite happy to let them, as they have no inclination themselves to change anything.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  21. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The idolization of the gang life, sports, and music (as careers) in certain sub-cultures. The "uncoolness" associated with actually doing work. Parents always defending their children when the latter are criticized by teachers (i.e. at parent-teacher conferences). A general "live in the present" culture. It's not a coincidence that the groups in the US who do best when it comes to education and economic situation are either immigrants (from good backgrounds) or people from sub-cultures that are in some way insulated from the dominant culture.
    I hit a button that sorted the forum by thread starter as opposed to time and stumbled across this thread.

    Huh, Loki used to actually make sense on occasion.

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