So, how's that separation of church and state coming along in the US?

[Khendraja'aro]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...-family-asylum

A US judge has granted political asylum to a German family who said they had fled the country to avoid persecution for home schooling their children.

In the first reported case of its kind, Tennessee immigration judge Lawrence Burman ruled that the family of seven have a legitimate fear of prosecution for their beliefs. Germany requires parents to enrol their children in school in most cases and has levied fines against those who *educate their children at home.

Christians Uwe Romeike, a piano teacher, and his wife, Hannelore, moved to Morristown, Tennessee, in 2008 after German authorities fined them thousands of euros for keeping their children out of school and sent police to escort them to classes, Romeike said. They had been holding classes in their home.

Along with thousands of torture victims, political dissidents, members of religious minorities and other persecuted groups who win political asylum every year, the Romeike family will now be free to live and work in the US. The case does not create a legal precedent unless the US government appeals and a higher immigration court hears the case.

"Home schoolers in Germany are a particular social group, which is one of the protected grounds under the asylum law," said Mike Connelly, attorney for the Home School Legal Defence Association, who argued the case. "This judge looked at the evidence, he heard their testimony, and he felt that the way Germany is treating home schoolers is wrong. The rights being violated here are basic human rights."

In 2006 the Romeikes pulled their children out of a state school in Bissingen, Germany, in protest of what they deemed an anti-Christian curriculum.

They said textbooks presented ideas and language that conflicted with their Christian beliefs, including slang terms for sex acts and images of vampires and witches, while the school offered what they described as ethics lessons from Islam, Buddhism and other religions. The eldest son got into fights in school and the eldest daughter had trouble studying.

"I think it's important for parents to have the freedom to chose the way their children can be taught," Romeike told the Associated Press.

About 1.5 million US children are taught at home. In Morristown, a town of about 27,000, the Romeikes have connected with other home schooling families, organising field trips and other activities.

The German consul general for the southeastern US said in a statement that mandatory school attendance ensures a high education standard for all children, adding that parents have many educational options.

In 2008, the US government received more than 47,000 applications for political asylum and granted 10,743, including four from Germany.

Connelly said this was the first time home schooling had been the central issue in a US political asylum case.

Unfortunately, the article centers a bit heavily on the fundamentalist's side.

Some additional facts: There are countless varieties of schools to choose from over here. Basic requirement: They have to teach according to teaching standards (which determines what kinds of topics have to be taught).
There were other small religious groups who didn't want to send their children to school. They usually joined an established religious school or founded one of their own.

[Wraith]

Separation of church and state doesn't mean that the state has to force people to give up aspects of their religion. In fact, it means just the opposite. Our justice system is supposed to be agnostic about petitioners religions. Sounds like everything is in order here. This doesn't seem to be related to separation of church and state at all.

[Loki]

Khen, if anything, your system forces people to be secular. That's not a separation of state and church - that's forcing a church upon the people.

[Khendraja'aro]

Since when is secularism a church? Do you even know what secularism is?

Secularism is the separation of church and state, for Christ's sake.

Maybe you thought of "atheism" or "agnosticism" or somesuch?

Separation of church and state doesn't mean that the state has to force people to give up aspects of their religion. In fact, it means just the opposite. Our justice system is supposed to be agnostic about petitioners religions. Sounds like everything is in order here. This doesn't seem to be related to separation of church and state at all.

So, if a religion calls for sex with minors, the state won't force them to abandon that?

[GGT]

The German consul general for the southeastern US said in a statement that mandatory school attendance ensures a high education standard for all children, adding that parents have many educational options.

Never heard of this.

So why didn't this family just send their kids to a Christian school in Germany?

[Loki]

Since when is secularism a church? Do you even know what secularism is?

Secularism is the separation of church and state, for Christ's sake.

Maybe you thought of "atheism" or "agnosticism" or somesuch?

You're telling people that they cannot follow their religion...How is that not enforcing your religious beliefs upon others? Separation of state and church means that the government doesn't privilege any religious belief, including a lack of it.

[Khendraja'aro]

Never heard of this.

So why didn't this family just send their kids to a Christian school in Germany?

The German Christian fundamentalists (funded by US ones, by the way) want to gain a foothold in Germany, probably.

You're telling people that they cannot follow their religion...How is that not enforcing your religious beliefs upon others? Separation of state and church means that the government doesn't privilege any religious belief, including a lack of it.

Again, if a religion called for sex with minors, would the US government enforce the (secular) law or allow the free practice of this religion?

[Steely Glint]

You're telling people that they cannot follow their religion...How is that not enforcing your religious beliefs upon others?

Loki, I think you need to read the article.

[Loki]

The German Christian fundamentalists (funded by US ones, by the way) want to gain a foothold in Germany, probably.

You're starting to sound like the government of Iran.

Loki, I think you need to read the article.

I did. Khen is taking a more extreme position than the German government.

[Steely Glint]

In what part of the article does it explain how the German couple was prevented from following their religion?

[GGT]

Some additional facts: There are countless varieties of schools to choose from over here. Basic requirement: They have to teach according to teaching standards (which determines what kinds of topics have to be taught).

There were other small religious groups who didn't want to send their children to school. They usually joined an established religious school or founded one of their own.

The German Christian fundamentalists (funded by US ones, by the way) want to gain a foothold in Germany, probably.

So are there religious schools as an option in Germany, or not?

[Khendraja'aro]

You're starting to sound like the government of Iran.

Umm, it's no secret that this family went to the US and called upon the court.

Instead of, say, moving to Switzerland (which other families with their opinions did).

And it's no secret that the costs for the US lawyer were paid by US fundamentalists. Sorry, Loki. Just facts here, no conspiracy.

So are there religious schools as an option in Germany, or not?

Quite a lot of them, actually.

[littlelolligagged]

Umm, it's no secret that this family went to the US and called upon the court.

Instead of, say, moving to Switzerland (which other families with their opinions did).

And it's no secret that the costs for the US lawyer were paid by US fundamentalists. Sorry, Loki. Just facts here, no conspiracy.

Why is that a problem?

[Khendraja'aro]

Why is that a problem?

Because those same Fundamentalists want to do the same crap to the German school system as they're already doing to the US one. Namely, establishing Creationism.

[littlelolligagged]

Because those same Fundamentalists want to do the same crap to the German school system as they're already doing to the US one. Namely, establishing Creationism.

So fringe religious groups shouldn't be able to fund activities of other fringe religious groups in other countries?

[Loki]

Umm, it's no secret that this family went to the US and called upon the court.

Instead of, say, moving to Switzerland (which other families with their opinions did).

And it's no secret that the costs for the US lawyer were paid by US fundamentalists. Sorry, Loki. Just facts here, no conspiracy.

Presumably they're trying to send a message to the German government. Are you against speech that you disagree with? What's the difference who they got the money from? Presumably they couldn't get it from German sources.

Because those same Fundamentalists want to do the same crap to the German school system as they're already doing to the US one. Namely, establishing Creationism.

And they should be banned from trying this?

[Khendraja'aro]

So fringe religious groups shouldn't be able to fund activities of other fringe religious groups in other countries?

They can do whatever they want. However, the fact that they're trying to do it by painting themselves a hunted minority takes the cake. They could try to use the money for funding a school...

Presumably they're trying to send a message to the German government. Are you against speech that you disagree with? What's the difference who they got the money from? Presumably they couldn't get it from German sources.

Y'know, I assumed that by telling me that I sound like the government of Iran you were accusing me of creating a conspiracy theory. I see now that your brain seems to be so utterly addled that you even forgot the very same statement you yourself uttered against me shortly before.
Sorry if I exceeded the capacity of your short-term memory (since the long-term one seems to be non-existant)

In short: Your questions make no sense because I said the same thing. I'm saying something is red and you're asking me immediately afterwards if something could be called red and if I hated the colour red. Good job there.

[GGT]

Are you saying the fundies in Germany are using the fundies in the US (plus our asylum decisions) to somehow force Germany to allow more fundamental Christian schools?

[Hazir]

So fringe religious groups shouldn't be able to fund activities of other fringe religious groups in other countries?

Let's make this a bit more specific; should it be ok for Wahhabi's of Saudi Arabia to fund Al Queda in the US?

[littlelolligagged]

Let's make this a bit more specific; should it be ok for Wahhabi's of Saudi Arabia to fund Al Queda in the US?

You don't think they do?

[Hazir]

Are you saying the fundies in Germany are using the fundies in the US (plus our asylum decisions) to somehow force Germany to allow more fundamental Christian schools?

I think, if I understand the real problem correctly, they want to force the German state to allow home schooling. Which, by the way is illegal in The Netherlands as well. But then again, we have such a wide variety of denominational schools that you have to be a raving lunatic not to find some obscure group tending to your needs.

[Hazir]

You don't think they do?

Well? Do you think it's ok?

[Wraith]

Political activism == terrorism. You heard it here first, folks!

[littlelolligagged]

Well? Do you think it's ok?

I'd have a bigger problem with its being outlawed than I do with its existing. Call it a slippery slope argument all you want, but if it is outlawed for one group what's to stop it from being outlawed for another.

Freeze accounts when there is proof of illegal activity, not before. Perhaps that'll give them the impetus to actually look for the proof.

[wiggin]

As far as I can tell, this court case had nothing to do with German policy vis-a-vis homeschooling, except for the fact that it exists. The family made a decent case that their beliefs (crazy as they may be) cause them to find the educational options in Germany to be unpalatable. Their choice to keep their children out of school was thus a religious one, and they left Germany due to the ensuing persecution. Thus, the court was just accepting their refugee status, not trying to change German policy.

This has *nothing* to do with separation of church in state in the US, merely US definitions of refugee status. I'm not sure what the big deal is, here.

[Hazir]

Political activism == terrorism. You heard it here first, folks!

Well, that's what you get for trying to corner somebody with such a deadpan question. Oh, and in parts of the world where I come regularly it might not be outright terrorism, but oppression sure describes what goes on.

I'd have a bigger problem with its being outlawed than I do with its existing. Call it a slippery slope argument all you want, but if it is outlawed for one group what's to stop it from being outlawed for another.

Freeze accounts when there is proof of illegal activity, not before. Perhaps that'll give them the impetus to actually look for the proof.

My point is that half of the time these dingbats use their money in a harmful way. There is no principle on this earth that obliges a government to let groups from outside harm their society. There is no slippery slope debate here at all. It's pretty much black or white; you don't have the right to interfere in the affairs of another state.

[Hazir]

As far as I can tell, this court case had nothing to do with German policy vis-a-vis homeschooling, except for the fact that it exists. The family made a decent case that their beliefs (crazy as they may be) cause them to find the educational options in Germany to be unpalatable. Their choice to keep their children out of school was thus a religious one, and they left Germany due to the ensuing persecution. Thus, the court was just accepting their refugee status, not trying to change German policy.

This has *nothing* to do with separation of church in state in the US, merely US definitions of refugee status. I'm not sure what the big deal is, here.

Actually US citizens should be worrying about this, as it lowers the threshold for political assylum considerably.

[wiggin]

Actually US citizens should be worrying about this, as it lowers the threshold for political assylum considerably.

Uhm, no. The case doesn't set a precedent unless it goes to a higher court. Furthermore, the definition is pretty broad already.

[Steely Glint]

If this were a British couple, my response would be more along the lines of "good riddance" than outrage.

[Hazir]

If this were a British couple, my response would be more along the lines of "good riddance" than outrage.

Ditto, but I couldn't probalby help to be annoyed a bit all the same that some US judge deems my country a place where people are prosecuted for their believes.