Which they're accomplishing by. . . helping German fundies settle in the US? Somehow that doesn't seem to be like it would achieve what you state is their desire.Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro
Which they're accomplishing by. . . helping German fundies settle in the US? Somehow that doesn't seem to be like it would achieve what you state is their desire.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
And plenty of Americans tend to bristle in a similar manner when topics like a refusal to extradite come up. Persecution, oppression, human rights abuses, these things when they come up in the West tend to be on the minor side, but the machinery designed to oppose them is, for the most part, deliberately designed to not care about how minor it is, and for good reason.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
heh, good riddance to bad thrash I'd say.
There is an exemption to the obligation for any person under 16 to attend schooling in an established school (public or non-public) for people who;
1. don't have a fixed place of residence;
2. who can't find a school that services their convictions;
3. are mentally or physically disabled in such a way that it prevents them to attend.
That means that maybe I shouldn't have said that it's illegal as such, because there are exemptions. However, given the size of the country, the proliferation of denominational schools it is virtually impossible to claim that you can't find a school that's catering to your particular religious needs. And that means that claims on the basis of that exemption are (near) always rejected. The other exemptions aren't really used, as most people who might use them find other solutions.
In Holland you could easily find two adjacent primary schools serving only slightly different denominations. The differences so slight that if I would try to translate them into English the one would be Reformed Dutch and the other Dutch Reformed.
Congratulations America
It was a German family seeking asylum. Are their laws just like Holland's?
Even so, Amish wouldn't fit your exclusions either. They 'graduate' after 8th grade around age 14.
They have 17 states that all have their own legislation.
The age restriction is universal, under 16 years you are obliged to follow schooling. You can't even be employed in jobs that would mean you have to work during schoolhours. And these rules are enforced rigorously.
Congratulations America
Exceptions are made for mentally or physically disabled people, or children who move around a lot. Other than that, every child has to attend school. This even extends to non-Germans with residence in Germany (e.g. Asylum seekers or illegals - the schools are expressly requested to not check the legal status of their parents).
The European Court of Human Rights did not find fault with the German laws regarding this matter, by the way. http://www.telladf.org/UserDocs/KonradDecision.pdf
Last edited by Khendraja'aro; 01-29-2010 at 12:39 PM.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
The deciding point sounds like compulsory socialization to me. (Not sure why I can't copy parts of the pdf)
Well, and painting Germany as a state which persecutes people for their religion is not a try to apply pressure to the German government?
Weird.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Well, I didn't read the verdict of course, but if that's is the case there is not a single constitution - that I know of - that offers protection.The deciding point sounds like compulsory socialization to me. (Not sure why I can't copy parts of the pdf
And now that I have read it; you are wrong, it is not a deciding point at all. What it states is that these people are claiming rights that don't exist. They almost go as far as saying that these people can't read.
Last edited by Hazir; 01-29-2010 at 02:48 PM.
Congratulations America
I disagree with the German policy. People should have the right to school their children.
That said, I don't see this as an asylum case. Define "persecution." Sure, under a very liberal definition this is persecution, but most such cases involve people being afraid of torture or death. "Oh noes they make our kids go to excellent schools" seems pretty lame in comparison. It's sort of an insult to people who are really persecuted. Where does the line get drawn?
Again, not sure why I can't copy/paste parts of the pdf......
"The court stressed that the decisive point was not whether or not home education was equally effective as primary school education, but that compulsory school attendance require children from all backgrounds in society to gather together......Schools represented society, and it was in the children's best interest to become part of that society. The parents' right to education did not go as far as to deprive their children of that experience."
According to the ECHR parents have the right to school their children, they just don't have the exclusive right to school their children.
The court = Baden Wurttemberg Administrative Court of Appeal. All the ECHR says about this is that given the diverse situation in the member states of the Council of Europe and the well argumented reasons for its position, the court stayed within its jurisdiction.Again, not sure why I can't copy/paste parts of the pdf......
"The court stressed that the decisive point was not whether or not home education was equally effective as primary school education, but that compulsory school attendance require children from all backgrounds in society to gather together......Schools represented society, and it was in the children's best interest to become part of that society. The parents' right to education did not go as far as to deprive their children of that experience."
The ruling says; homeschooling is not a right protected under the Convention.
Last edited by Hazir; 01-29-2010 at 04:39 PM.
Congratulations America
I think your characterization of their intent and the article are more negative than is accurate, and as such no, I do not think they're trying to apply pressure on the German government with this.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
It gets drawn in a broad, inclusive manner because that's the only way to guarantee we help the people we all really want to help.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
Yeah, I got that. I disagree with the notion that the state has more rights over the social assimilation of a child than their parent or guardian. It smacks to me of forced socialization, using schools (whether private or public) as the tool.
So, you'd applaud introducing the Shari'a?
Bravo.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Oh come now, don't put words in my mouth.
I'm trying to keep this in the context of homeschooling. Germany seems to think there's no place for it, and I disagree. It doesn't even have to do with religion. In the states you can live in the wild west and homeschool, even if there's a school 10 miles away. Ditto for city dwellers.
We've got loonies, weirdos, social misfits, criminals, and terrorists all over the world, but I'm pretty sure it's not homeschooling (or even social isolation) that's the cause.
That's nice that you think that way. However, the fact that HSLDA lawyer Mike Donnelly pulled a Godwin paints a slightly different view.
http://www.hslda.org/hs/internationa.../201001260.asp
So, maybe next time, you should inform yourself about the positions of the people you're defending? Classic case of "Open Mouth, Insert Foot".[...]“It is embarrassing for Germany, since a Western nation should uphold basic human rights, which include allowing parents to raise and educate their own children. This judge understood the case perfectly, and he called Germany out. We hope this decision will cause Germany to stop persecuting homeschoolers,” he added.
"[...]This is simply about the German state trying to coerce ideological uniformity in a way that is frighteningly reminiscent of past history.
[...]Germany’s treatment of homeschooling families is worthy of condemnation from the international community.[...]"
"[...]Germany is in the company of countries like China, North Korea and others where fundamental human rights are not respected.[...]"
"[...]We hope that the decision will send a clear message to authorities in Germany to make changes right away!”[...]
I could see a case to be made if they argued with quality of teaching. However, their bone lies with the content. Thus they have no case.Oh come now, don't put words in my mouth.
I'm trying to keep this in the context of homeschooling. Germany seems to think there's no place for it, and I disagree. It doesn't even have to do with religion. In the states you can live in the wild west and homeschool, even if there's a school 10 miles away. Ditto for city dwellers.
We've got loonies, weirdos, social misfits, criminals, and terrorists all over the world, but I'm pretty sure it's not homeschooling (or even social isolation) that's the cause.
And of course you seem to have this notion of a " uniform German society". There's no such thing. Bavaria (and it's rather diverse subparts) is quite different from Lower Saxony or Rhineland-Palatinate or Swabia.
Last edited by Khendraja'aro; 01-29-2010 at 06:14 PM.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
How do you interpret the portions I quoted? I take it to mean the parents' beef is with the method of teaching. They might find a Christian Fundamentalist school, but that's not what they want, for whatever reason.
The German courts could also decide that genius parents with PhDs in Education and Child Development couldn't homeschool their kids, because they won't get that "socialization with other children" the state is requiring.
I don't have a certain notion of German Society. I also posted a link to an article about Germany changing its ideas on pre-school and kindergarten and all-day school vs half-day. Seems that parents of young children have valued "learning at home" and "learning from parents" for a long time, in the way early child ed was structured....
Sorry, but the parents specifically stated that it's not about the methods of teaching. It's about the content.
You did read the PDF, didn't you? The first paragraph is basically about how they're not allowed to only teach their bible-centric views to their children, they even talk about a divine order (and then they call concentration training "esoteric", if that isn't ironic, I don't know what is). Second paragraph is pretty much the same. Third paragraph states that they're not allowed to practice their religion.
Nowhere are they talking about fear of sub-par education.
Exceptions for home schooling are made in the rare cases I already listed. High IQ does not count either. Then again, there are schools for the gifted.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Well we're all armchair judges at this point.I must have missed the exceptions you listed, I only saw Hazir's. How far back should I scroll or maybe you would repeat it?
Bottom line is Germany decided this family couldn't homeschool, family objected and appealed and lost, so they sought asylum in the US. Asylum granted.
What are you concerned about, exactly--that there will be either a sudden emigration out of Germany, or that Germany might have more homeschooled kids in the future? If it's the latter then what's wrong with that? Are you worried it'll spawn a bunch of sociopaths or something?
I already stated that the Fundamentalists are using this to further their agenda over here, as evidence by the statement of the HSLDA and their other projects (which can also be found on their pages).
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
But you also said Germany has religious schools, which would (presumably) already include some fundamentalist ideology.
Yay! Then we can include much of the third world, since they face corruption, more violent police, more religious discrimination etc etc. Let me be more accurate: this definition probably includes more than half of the world's population. That's horse shit. The line should be drawn for existential threats. It's insulting to include "making our kids go to school" with genital mutilation, torture, rape and murder.
Our country, the US was founded primarily on the basis of escaping the religious persecution that was taking place in England. Pilgrims made their way to this land where they settled at Plymouth Rock. Now lets advance forward to when we became a government. The Declaration of Independence was written for the protection of our religious beliefs not for the opposing thereof. The separation of Church and state was written as a way to make sure that the government could in no way shape or form have any influence on the church. This was also written in a time when Christianity was the primary religion. We now have countless religions in our country, even some satanic cults claiming that they have the same religious rights as other religions do. So it's very hard to uphold a true separation between church and state in this new society that we have today.
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
Say, you did read the part about "content versus quality"? All German schools have to adhere to the guidelines as to what has to be taught in school (e.g. sex education). That makes a fundamentalist school a bit difficult as those, just like I already stated, object purely on a basis of content and are not interested in how they're education their children per se.But you also said Germany has religious schools, which would (presumably) already include some fundamentalist ideology.
It's about compromise, GGT. Every person who wants to take part in a society has to compromise. Fundamentalists are unable to compromise. That's what makes them so dangerous.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
hmm. Well at least now your title is clearer. You have a particular disdain for Christian Fundamentalists, and think that if they homeschool their kids, they'll unleash some vile monster on society. So you welcome Germany stepping in to tell families exactly how and where to educate their children.
If that's your opinion you're welcome to it, even tho I think you're overreaching and overreacting a bit. You should probably also change the title to say So, how's that separation of church and state coming along in Germany?
The people who are "dangerous", in general, most likely weren't homeschooled.
I actually have quite a few friends that were home schooled. I always thought they were lucky lol!
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