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Thread: Pirates... Why don't we shoot them?

  1. #1
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    Default Pirates... Why don't we shoot them?

    http://www.longwarjournal.org/threat...four_us_ci.php

    *****

    Earlier today, Somali pirates murdered four US citizens who were being held hostage as negotiations for their release were underway. Vice Admiral Mark Fox, the commander of Central Command's naval forces, briefed the media on what is currently known about the murders.

    The Somali pirates executed the four US civilians after opening fire on a nearby US warship with a rocket-propelled grenade. The naval task force then dispatched special operations teams using small boats (the special operators were without a doubt SEALs). Once aboard, the special operations forces found the four dead Americans and two dead pirates. Two other pirates were killed as the team cleared the yacht; one of the pirates was killed in a close-quarters knife fight. Thirteen pirates on the yacht surrendered as the special operations team boarded the yacht. Two other pirates, who were aboard a US warship to negotiate the Americans' release, are also in custody.

    From Admiral Fox's briefing:

    On Friday, February 18th, at about 4 p.m. local time, the Royal Danish Navy Ship Esbern Snare reported to the 5th Fleet Maritime Operations Center that its helicopter had identified a U.S.-flagged, privately owned yacht that may have been pirated. The Sailing Vessel Quest was approximately 190 nautical miles southeast of Masirah Island, Oman, when it was pirated.

    The commander of the U.S. Central Command directed for forces, predominantly U.S. Navy ships and aircraft operating in the 5th Fleet area of operations, to investigate the scene. Four U.S. Navy warships responded to the effort to recover the yacht: USS Enterprise, an aircraft carrier; Guided Missile Cruiser Leyte Gulf; and Guided Missile Destroyers Sterett and Buckley.

    The U.S. Navy warships found and shadowed the Quest, made contact with the pirates via bridge-to-bridge contact, talked to the ship's master and verified the status of the hostages, that were safe at the time, and began a series of negotiations. On Monday, February 21st, two pirates boarded USS Sterett to continue negotiations, and they remained onboard Sterett overnight.

    At 8 this morning local time, a rocket-propelled grenade was fired from the Quest by the pirates towards the Sterett. The Sterett was approximately 600 yards away from the Quest.

    Immediately thereafter, gunfire also erupted inside the cabin of the Quest. Several pirates appeared on deck and moved up to the bow with their hands in the air in surrender.

    U.S. naval reaction forces closed in on the Quest in small boats and boarded the yacht. As they responded to the gunfire, reaching and boarding the Quest, the U.S. sailors discovered that all four hostages had been shot by their captors.

    Despite immediate steps to provide life-saving care, all four of the American hostages died of their wounds.

    The U.S. sailors also found two pirates already dead on board. While clearing the vessel, two additional pirates were killed. The remaining 15 suspected pirates are in U.S. custody.

    The international community has stepped up patrols along the coast of Somalia, but the Somali pirates have responded by expanding operations using "motherships." So far, however, the international community has refused to hit the pirates where it would hurt them most: in their strongholds along the Somali coast.

    Read more: http://www.longwarjournal.org/threat...#ixzz1EkrCNCIk

    ******

    15 suspected pirates in U.S. custody? Uh unless we are interrogating them in order to find out where the rest of the filth are is there any reason not to execute them? They do not have the right of due process since they are not US citizens. They are not POWs they are not criminals they are terrorists of the sea. They are pirates. Kill them now.

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    Hmm, that would be justice....

    2000 years ago.

    You don't execute people who surrender...

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    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Because if you always shoot them on sight, they will kill hostages even more quickly. And with a few hundred hostages being kept by them that's not really desirable.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

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    Administrator Dreadnaught's Avatar
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    We have shot them in the past when we've had an opening and there was imminent risk to the hostages. But that doesn't mean you shoot all the time.

    Though I am a bit surprised to hear the Navy was negotiating (or facilitating negotiations?) with the hostage-takers.

  5. #5
    First off, it's probably illegal despite your rather remarkable claims. Secondly,

    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    Because if you always shoot them on sight, they will kill hostages even more quickly. And with a few hundred hostages being kept by them that's not really desirable.
    Every American taken hostage would then be executed on sight in retaliation, and the violence of attacks would escalate.

    Dread: I think Lewk is talking about executing pirates already in custody, not attacking pirates in control of hostages (which, in certain circumstances, is very much necessary).

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    Yes to clarify I mean the pirates in custody. I don't have a real issue with not going in guns blazing as long as there is a chance that the hostages might still be free. It still may be the best option but if the pirates appear willing to negotiate don't put the hostages lives at risk. But if the hostages are murdered by the scum... kill them immediately. At the very least it will send a message that if you hurt/kill a hostage you face certain death.

    How do you figure its illegal?

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    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    You surprise me, Lewk. I figured you'd cite international maritime laws that allow boaters/sailors to carry arms on-board, and a legal shoot-to-kill for self-protection.

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    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Yes to clarify I mean the pirates in custody. I don't have a real issue with not going in guns blazing as long as there is a chance that the hostages might still be free. It still may be the best option but if the pirates appear willing to negotiate don't put the hostages lives at risk. But if the hostages are murdered by the scum... kill them immediately. At the very least it will send a message that if you hurt/kill a hostage you face certain death.

    How do you figure its illegal?
    To execute them for piracy would be idiotic as everyone else has said it'd just mean more killings.

    If you mean execute them for the murder, that's different from what you originally said.

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    How so?


    15 suspected pirates in U.S. custody? Uh unless we are interrogating them in order to find out where the rest of the filth are is there any reason not to execute them?
    Those fifteen pirates are guilty of the murder of 4 US citizens whose lives are in my mind collectively worth more then all the pirates from third world hell holes combined.

  10. #10
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    They were reportedly quite experienced sailors, competing in a race where numbers gave them safety. No news yet as to why they left the race and ventured into dangerous waters alone. But they should have at least had a gun on board. That's fairly common for international sailors and boaters.

    Hell, even in Bahamian waters my mother and her companion had to ward off "pirates" by showing their shotgun and firing warning shots to small, strange craft approaching them in open waters.

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    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    They were reportedly quite experienced sailors, competing in a race where numbers gave them safety. No news yet as to why they left the race and ventured into dangerous waters alone. But they should have at least had a gun on board. That's fairly common for international sailors and boaters.

    Hell, even in Bahamian waters my mother and her companion had to ward off "pirates" by showing their shotgun and firing warning shots to small, strange craft approaching them in open waters.
    Actually, part of it depends on the ports of call, they may not be allowed weapons. That is why some of the big ships were taken, no weapons, was it not?
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    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    Actually, part of it depends on the ports of call, they may not be allowed weapons. That is why some of the big ships were taken, no weapons, was it not?
    Maybe, I don't know. What I do know is.....most anyone sailing in international waters would most likely have a gun on board. Nothing quite like miles and miles and miles of nothing but water to make people act protectively.

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    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Perhaps, but a gun legal in the US may not be legal in Italy. So many don't bother.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    How do you figure its illegal?
    The US has a federal law on the books prescribing a penalty of life imprisonment for piracy. I think that means summary executions (without a trial) would not be in line with US law, and might conflict with international maritime law as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    Actually, part of it depends on the ports of call, they may not be allowed weapons. That is why some of the big ships were taken, no weapons, was it not?
    From my TV recollection (Fox), they didn't have weapons because the companies that owned the ships had decided it was more dangerous to have guns on board... some of them re-evaluated this strategy later on.

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    Nihilist Nessus's Avatar
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    Why don't we nuke the entire Somaliland coastline?
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    The US has a federal law on the books prescribing a penalty of life imprisonment for piracy. I think that means summary executions (without a trial) would not be in line with US law, and might conflict with international maritime law as well.
    Just because the law prescribes a punishment doesn't mean the United States would be acting outside of the law by picking a different punishment. Remember these people (thugs, filth, worthless shits) are not citizens and they are not POWs. They have no rights. As such there is no right to due process for them. Just like we are fully within our rights as America to take out terrorists in Pakistan with predators.

  18. #18
    Uhm, actually the US is bound to respect certain rights that accrue to non-citizens by virtue of the fact that we're a party to the ICCPR. I don't know if the Geneva Conventions would apply to them or not (probably not), but that's irrelevant - Article 14 of the ICCPR gives everyone a right to a fair trial.

    Furthermore, the US government is not allowed to 'act outside the law'; that's why we have laws. The law in question specifically applies to non-citizen pirates and provides for them to be tried in a federal court in the US, with a possible sentence of life imprisonment. We can't make up other punishments and summarily apply them just because we want to; we'd need to change the law, and even then we'd probably still need a trial.

    Lastly, your comparison to our drone strikes in Pakistan is flawed. The reason why many legal experts allow drone strikes is because we are in wartime and there is no other reasonable way to apprehend or kill enemy leaders. Yet you're talking about executing people after we have captured them, which is an entirely different story.

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    Senior Member Enoch the Red's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Why don't we nuke the entire Somaliland coastline?
    Gotta nuke something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Uhm, actually the US is bound to respect certain rights that accrue to non-citizens by virtue of the fact that we're a party to the ICCPR. I don't know if the Geneva Conventions would apply to them or not (probably not), but that's irrelevant - Article 14 of the ICCPR gives everyone a right to a fair trial.

    Furthermore, the US government is not allowed to 'act outside the law'; that's why we have laws. The law in question specifically applies to non-citizen pirates and provides for them to be tried in a federal court in the US, with a possible sentence of life imprisonment. We can't make up other punishments and summarily apply them just because we want to; we'd need to change the law, and even then we'd probably still need a trial.

    Lastly, your comparison to our drone strikes in Pakistan is flawed. The reason why many legal experts allow drone strikes is because we are in wartime and there is no other reasonable way to apprehend or kill enemy leaders. Yet you're talking about executing people after we have captured them, which is an entirely different story.
    Fair trial? Who says it wouldn't be fair? Captain of the navy vessel acts as judge, jury and executioner empowered by the president to rid the world of the 15 scum bags in custody that murdered 4 of our citizens. Course it will never happen because we have become a bunch of giant pansies. A fair trial does not mean a jury trial. That's a right US citizens have not murdering bastards from the third world.

  21. #21
    Now I can tell you're just trying to be controversial. *shrugs* Have fun; I think I've demonstrated the legal points quite well if you bothered to read the ICCPR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Fair trial? Who says it wouldn't be fair? Captain of the navy vessel acts as judge, jury and executioner empowered by the president to rid the world of the 15 scum bags in custody that murdered 4 of our citizens. Course it will never happen because we have become a bunch of giant pansies. A fair trial does not mean a jury trial. That's a right US citizens have not murdering bastards from the third world.
    There is so much going on with this that contradicts how you claim to believe in American and Christian values that it is infuriating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Now I can tell you're just trying to be controversial. *shrugs* Have fun; I think I've demonstrated the legal points quite well if you bothered to read the ICCPR.
    Does it require jury trials?

    And controversial? Hell even the far left liberals on DU are calling for the scum to walk the plank. Your in the minority here, no one will weep for the pirates. Obama received universal support for the Seals killing the other pirates a few months ago.

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    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Does it require jury trials?

    And controversial? Hell even the far left liberals on DU are calling for the scum to walk the plank. Your in the minority here, no one will weep for the pirates. Obama received universal support for the Seals killing the other pirates a few months ago.
    They had not surrendered, thus were still in play and a threat to the hostages.

    You need to make your mind Lewk if you are a rule of law guy or not, or just trolling.
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    This thread is complete and utter

    needs moar ...







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    And that's Why I'm Voting Leave.

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    Lolz @ pengs.

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    Lewk, it's a civilisation thing. You wouldn't understand.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Hell even the far left liberals [...]
    Pirates are a political left/right issue in your mind?

    You really do say the darnedest things.
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    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Why don't we nuke the entire Somaliland coastline?
    Why don't you eliminate the entire Narm homeworld while you're at it?
    If you tolerate this, then your children will be next.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Why don't you eliminate the entire Narm homeworld while you're at it?
    Spell Narn right, you vile Centauri scum.

  30. #30
    Nihilist Nessus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Why don't you eliminate the entire Narm homeworld while you're at it?
    My followers?

    Your victims.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

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