US Government Shut Down?

[GGT]

Right, those poor legislators, being expected to legislate. Also, they can't simply rent a condo in suburban VA and drive into DC (or take public transit) like other working folk! But they're more than happy to withhold other civil servant's salaries while keeping their own. If they can't do their jobs, they shouldn't expect to be paid for being failures.

Edit

And don't try to pretend that Schumer or Durbin don't have another home, other fancy digs. Or that they don't stay in 4 or 5 star hotels instead of a La Quinta Inn. Gah, do you even listen to how absurd and apologetic you sound, Dread?

[wiggin]

To be honest, Dread, I think you're a little disingenuous here. Sure, there are costs associated with being a Congressman, but the pay is relatively generous and there's nothing keeping the other spouse from working. A decent studio apartment in DC is not that expensive (I know; I have many friends who live in Georgetown or Foggy Bottom), and honestly a Congressman doesn't need much more given their schedules and lifestyles.

This is entirely besides the point, of course. I couldn't care less if Congress is paid or not; honestly, I'm not even that concerned about all of the government employees who won't get paid. I'm more concerned with the damage this potential shutdown would do to government projects (which are a huge and important part of our economy) and to the government's credibility. This is more likely to scare off the bond market than a large deficit, and with good reason. If we can't even pass a budget over what's really pocket change, how can we fix our underlying fiscal problems?

A lot of government suppliers are already having to change their production schedules since they're not going to get paid. This is a huge hit to the economy during a recovery and exactly the opposite of what we need. (It also has some other big problems - e.g. major defense procurement initiatives are going to go on hold indefinitely, which is a fantastic waste of money and could lead to significant gaps in our capabilities.)

[Illusions]

$174k is not a lot if you have a family and paying the costs on two homes

And $10 million a year is not a lot if you have to pay the costs on owning an island...I mean this is ridiculously silly..."Oh, his pay isn't a lot of money because its all spent on the expensive stuff he owns"...

[GGT]

If we can't even pass a budget over what's really pocket change, how can we fix our underlying fiscal problems?

This, above all, this.

[Dreadnaught]

Right, those poor legislators, being expected to legislate. Also, they can't simply rent a condo in suburban VA and drive into DC (or take public transit) like other working folk! But they're more than happy to withhold other civil servant's salaries while keeping their own. If they can't do their jobs, they shouldn't expect to be paid for being failures.

Edit

And don't try to pretend that Schumer or Durbin don't have another home, other fancy digs. Or that they don't stay in 4 or 5 star hotels instead of a La Quinta Inn. Gah, do you even listen to how absurd and apologetic you sound, Dread?

Fuck's sake GGT, please read what I'm saying. My point is they have another home. They need to pay for that home, while also paying for a home in DC. And BTW giving gifts like fancy hotel rooms and fancy meals to members of Congress and administration officials is extremely difficult. A few weeks ago I was working at an awards ceremony where dinner was served. Timothy Geithner very pointedly arrived and sat down after dinner had been served. Our government is incompetent, but they usually aren't unethical.

To be honest, Dread, I think you're a little disingenuous here. Sure, there are costs associated with being a Congressman, but the pay is relatively generous and there's nothing keeping the other spouse from working. A decent studio apartment in DC is not that expensive (I know; I have many friends who live in Georgetown or Foggy Bottom), and honestly a Congressman doesn't need much more given their schedules and lifestyles.

It's generous depending on what expenses you have in your home district. I'm not saying they are living in poverty, but we shouldn't sink into this populist delusion that they are doing this for the money. It's not a lot of cash if you're sinking it into what's basically a double life.

[GGT]

So fucking what? They have a job to do, and they're not doing it.

[Loki]

Coincidentally, what kind of people are we trying to attract here? People whine when public workers don't get paid as much as they would in the private sector. How much do you think a Congressman would be able to earn if he decided to pursue another career? Furthermore, by lowering the salaries of elected officials, you're increasing the odds of ending up with rich people who don't care about income.

[wiggin]

It's generous depending on what expenses you have in your home district. I'm not saying they are living in poverty, but we shouldn't sink into this populist delusion that they are doing this for the money. It's not a lot of cash if you're sinking it into what's basically a double life.

Fair enough, I can agree with this. There are a lot better ways to make money than getting elected to public office in the US, and most Congressmen have the education and skills to get those jobs.

That being said, Congress is in recess a surprising amount of the year (they have recess or a 'constituent work week' about one week a month, along with a whole slew of other holidays and a few longer recesses, like in all of August). There's nothing keeping them from having a job on the side (e.g. as a lawyer or consultant or some other job that can have flexible hours). I know a few state legislators who have active law practices when they're not in the capital.

Even if that's not possible (for those Congressmen who actually care about doing their job right and work 100-hour weeks year round), they're hardly living in poverty. There are many Americans who commute to work during the week, and while the costs are higher than working closer to home, it's not a huge imposition. Figure it's an extra $20-40k a year depending on the accommodations and travel costs. Not cheap, but not breaking the bank either. Obviously this salary goes a lot further in some home districts than others, though, which I'll happily concede.

[Loki]

Fair enough, I can agree with this. There are a lot better ways to make money than getting elected to public office in the US, and most Congressmen have the education and skills to get those jobs.

That being said, Congress is in recess a surprising amount of the year (they have recess or a 'constituent work week' about one week a month, along with a whole slew of other holidays and a few longer recesses, like in all of August). There's nothing keeping them from having a job on the side (e.g. as a lawyer or consultant or some other job that can have flexible hours). I know a few state legislators who have active law practices when they're not in the capital.

Last I checked, constituent services is part of their job. And I haven't heard of too many Congressmen who put in less than 40 hours a week. Even if we ignore the lack of free time (and your political opponent will make an issue of you working as a lawyer instead of spending more time with your constituents), there's too much potential for a conflict of interest with the jobs you mention. It would cause too many possible ethical and political problems.

[wiggin]

A lot of state legislators do precisely what I mentioned with little concern about conflicts of interest. They don't need to be working in politics-related portions of law (or consulting). Hell, they could just be writing a book or speaking at events or whatever. It brings in revenue.

"Constituent work week" is shorthand for "do whatever the hell you want". Some Congressmen actually do their job; many don't.

edit: Obama was both in a law firm and a lecturer at U of C for his entire Illinois Senate term. This is very common in the state legislature, and I'm sure plenty of Congressmen do so as well.

[Loki]

A lot of state legislators do precisely what I mentioned with little concern about conflicts of interest. They don't need to be working in politics-related portions of law (or consulting). Hell, they could just be writing a book or speaking at events or whatever. It brings in revenue.

"Constituent work week" is shorthand for "do whatever the hell you want". Some Congressmen actually do their job; many don't.

You can't even compare the work volume of state legislators to Congressmen. You're also not allowed to do paid speaking in your capacity as a Congressman; consulting brings up numerous ethical problems that aren't really relevant to state legislators.

That depends entirely on whether you want to get reelected. I don't know where you get your numbers from, but the studies I've seen show that Congressmen spend a ridiculous amount of time on constituent services each week (far more time than they spend in D.C.).

[wiggin]

You can't even compare the work volume of state legislators to Congressmen. You're also not allowed to do paid speaking in your capacity as a Congressman; consulting brings up numerous ethical problems that aren't really relevant to state legislators.

I agree that in general state legislators have a slightly lower workload than federal Congressmen, but they also have much smaller staffs and budgets. I'm not sure why consulting as, say, an engineer would be an ethical problem.

That depends entirely on whether you want to get reelected. I don't know where you get your numbers from, but the studies I've seen show that Congressmen spend a ridiculous amount of time on constituent services each week (far more time than they spend in D.C.).

In what I've read, it varies quite a bit from person to person how much actual work they do during constituent work week. Even considering those weeks 'work', there's still about two months of actual recess. Congressmen can choose to work on re-election, of course, but they also have the opportunity to pick up other work. There's also nothing keeping their spouses from working; even a modest salary of $50-60k can easily offset the commuting and second home costs in DC.

[Loki]

I agree that in general state legislators have a slightly lower workload than federal Congressmen, but they also have much smaller staffs and budgets. I'm not sure why consulting as, say, an engineer would be an ethical problem.

A vast majority of Congressmen are either former lawyers or businessmen.

In what I've read, it varies quite a bit from person to person how much actual work they do during constituent work week. Even considering those weeks 'work', there's still about two months of actual recess. Congressmen can choose to work on re-election, of course, but they also have the opportunity to pick up other work. There's also nothing keeping their spouses from working; even a modest salary of $50-60k can easily offset the commuting and second home costs in DC.

Recess means more time with constituents and more time spent fundraising. There is a lot of variation in terms of how many hours Congressmen put in, but we're talking about well over 40 hours a week at the lower part of that spectrum. Most Congressmen have 6-7 day weeks, and spent most of their waking time either in session, doing constituent work, fund-raising, or flying between D.C. and their district (which they do every week).

[GGT]

Sounds like a bunch of excuses for legislators not doing their job.

[LittleFuzzy]

Also, they can't simply rent a condo in suburban VA and drive into DC (or take public transit) like other working folk!

They could. . . but they're expected to maintain an availability that isn't really possible with that sort of commute.

I have no problem with the idea that they don't get paid when they're engaging in deliberate gridlock, but let's not kid ourselves and pretend they're vastly overpaid for what the public expects from them

*note I said that public, not you. Even assuming you could figure out what you expect, you couldn't effectively communicate it, and if you can't communicate it, no one else can be expected to comply with it

[GGT]

They could. . . but they're expected to maintain an availability that isn't really possible with that sort of commute.

I have no problem with the idea that they don't get paid when they're engaging in deliberate gridlock, but let's not kid ourselves and pretend they're vastly overpaid for what the public expects from them

*note I said that public, not you. Even assuming you could figure out what you expect, you couldn't effectively communicate it, and if you can't communicate it, no one else can be expected to comply with it

What do you mean about maintaining an "availability" that can't be met with a commute? That's nonsense. Plenty of journalists and lobbyists manage to make the commute, to meet with the legislators....and we're talking about a 30 minute commute from suburban VA to DC. They don't all have a townhouse in Georgetown, and Loudon County is full of federal workers.

I can communicate what's expected just fine, thanks. Most of the general public can, too. It's not nearly as important what they're paid, as it is they're not doing their job and expecting to be paid. While shutting down services and salaries for other people. That's just twisted.

[oldmunchkin]

If "they" can't manage to pay the military and pay the secondary government workers, then no national politician, POTUS included, should get a damned dime in pay!

Obviously I can't speak for other states legislators, but in Wyoming, they are usually already pretty goddamned high up the income ladder when they are elected. The vast majority of them seem to come from "old money", thus they don't even need to collect their salaries at all! We used to have a representative from Wyoming who was a doctor, who's husband was a doctor, and they sure as shit didn't live in the slums of either Casper or Washington DC! Her husband got cancer in her last term in office. Someone figured out that the last 2 years she served in DC, she spent more time in Wyoming at her husband's side than she did in Washington! She was NOT doing "constituent" anything! Of course, we the taxpayers got to pay her fucking salary, his medical care, and her transportation costs throughout her time of being a "dutiful" wifey and sitting by his fucking bed!

I guess the point being, MOST of those who are elected officials do NOT need their salary. They already have "family" money, or have already hit it big with something on their own, putting them in the 1% that hold all the wealth! If they choose to "rough it" and share an apartment with other elected officials, that's their own doing.

EDIT: FFS, I'd love to "rough it" in an apartment like the one you linked to, Dread! Jesus Christ on a Bloody Fucking Crutch...my whole apartment would fit in the fucking living room! "Rough it" my aching ass!

[Hazir]

Huh? Are saying there that people don't deserve getting paid just because they already have money? You really want to give up on the idea that anyone could be elected? Because what you are advocating here is that only those with money can afford to run for office.

Also, usually what you get if you try to regulate because of one bad apple, are bad and unjust rules. You representative could have been chucked out for doing a bad job. İf she wasn't, clearly her voters had a different idea.

[Hazir]

On a different note; shutdown has at least the effect that Americans at large no longer can close their eyes to how big their fiscal problems really are. That they are not just potentially harmfull for the poor but for the entire food chain.

[Loki]

The irony is that the fight is between cutting the budget 2% for the rest of the fiscal year and cutting it 4%. I'm willing to bet that the Greeks, Irish, and Portuguese would be ecstatic if those were the choices they were facing.

[wiggin]

On a different note; shutdown has at least the effect that Americans at large no longer can close their eyes to how big their fiscal problems really are. That they are not just potentially harmfull for the poor but for the entire food chain.

Uh... we don't actually have a short-term fiscal problem, Hazir, let alone a 'large' one. There's no sovereign debt crisis, no unmanageable funding requirements, etc. We do have a fairly large deficit, but that has a lot to do with cyclical factors. A government shutdown is completely unwarranted and simply due to politics; hell, even cutting $0 from the budget, while probably not the best idea, isn't really a big problem.

Even our long term structural fiscal problem is fairly mild given the time frame, the relative youth of our population, and the low-hanging fruit available to fix a large part of it. It's just that the political environment in DC makes effective policy to fix these problems largely impossible. I'd say the bigger problem in America is not our long term deficit issues, but rather our increasingly dysfunctional political environment.

[Hazir]

The fun of that way of thinking of course is that dysfunctional government allways is what brings country's economies down. İ think you are wildly optimistic about America's ability to fix it's problems.

[wiggin]

The fun of that way of thinking of course is that dysfunctional government allways is what brings country's economies down. İ think you are wildly optimistic about America's ability to fix it's problems.

Our 'ability' isn't the issue; it's our political will that's the problem.

[Catgrrl]

Oh my God, they can live in fucking Arlington or Alexandria, or even a bit further than that for much less. Or fucking rent. My brother rents in Arlington and makes nowhere near 174k. Also, it's not like these people don't have shitloads of money from other businesses/jobs they hold. They don't have to own property there. Especially if they have two homes; kinda dumb to do more than rent as a legislator when you aren't in session year round anyways. And may not be there in a few years when you're voted out!

What about the military person, who's family depend on each paycheck to pay for food, rent, etc? On FB it's been blowing up (know a few military wives), credit unions are going to offer stop-gap loans and other assistance if this happens. What about them?

My bro works in the government, and he may be facing this shutdown too. He's a little perturbed but understands he isn't essential.

The military is. I'd argue moreso than ridiculous legislators who can't get off their asses and compromise, work together!, to get this budget through.

[Ominous Gamer]

the incoming Tea Party Freshman

[Aimless]

Wait, aren't politicians obliged to shaft their opponents at all costs? Aren't they required to never surrender? This is a war goddamnit.

As for the rest I don't understand why they can't live in decent government-owned (or rented) apartments. No buying selling and maintenance required.

[Aimless]

I like the idea of discouraging political grandstanding by putting grandstanders' salaries on the line, btw. This sort of childish behaviour would be less appealing if they weren't clowning around with only other people's money.

[Aimless]

Sounds like a bunch of excuses for legislators not doing their job.

surely it's as relevant to their performance and their behaviour as rain is to democracy. it's not fair of you to ignore these aspects of their lives and their jobs.

[Loki]

I like the idea of discouraging political grandstanding by putting grandstanders' salaries on the line, btw. This sort of childish behaviour would be less appealing if they weren't clowning around with only other people's money.

And who does that affect except for the lower middle class Congressmen? Most of them are fairly wealthy. You think those Congressmen will care if they don't get paid for a week or tow?

[Lewkowski]

Cost of living in DC?

http://www.city-data.com/city/Washin...-Columbia.html

Some key figures to look at:

Median Household Income: $59,290.
Per Capita Income: $40,797
Median Gross Rent: $1,059.
Perspective: Priceless.