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Thread: Another Reason the Middle East is Terrible

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    a country that doesn't let homosexuals get married,
    Sweden's established state church only reversed positions and started allowing same-sex marriage what, 18 months ago? Isn't it a bit early to climb on that particular high horse, Minxy?
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  2. #32
    Senior Member Draco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    And he's not even from the United States! He's Australian...
    That gave me a nice chuckle There are plenty of people here who admire the US (I'm not talking about its internal politics and foreign relations). I know a few people who decided to emigrate and they love it there.

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco View Post
    Wow calm down. Is your background from the Middle East? If so, I didn't mean to offend you Funny thing is, I've met like 2-3 Arabs (who identified as atheists) who would have agreed with what I said, so get over it princess.
    Not everyone takes on the left wing PC view that you do.
    What, I have to be from the middle east to take issue with your flagrant idiocy? Do I have to be black to despise your racism? Do I have to be a woman to despise your misogyny? Do I have to be poor to despise your hatred of the poor? Do I have to be a rich kid to have a problem with your hatred of rich kids?

    There's nothing strange about finding a couple of racist atheist Arabs. Arabs are just as capable--if not more capable--of being racists as anyone else. There's no shortage of self-loathing Arabs/Persians/Serbs/Slavs etc. who'll go to ridiculous extremes to distance themselves from other Arabs/Persians/Serbs/Slavs etc. There's no shortage of gayish men who seemingly hate gayish men. There's no shortage of women who hate other women. More often than not it's a defense mechanism caused by growing up in a hostile environment.

    Oh and you're criticism of America, yeah it's funny how everyone focuses on the negatives, but don't forget that it's because of America that we have todays technology, medicine and freedom in the Western world.
    What, so creating the iPad somehow makes up for murder and torture? If I rape someone but save three lives then do I get a get-out-of-jail free card? YEAH IT'S FUNNY HOW EVERYONE FOCUSES ON THE NEGATIVES, but not in the case of Dubai, there's nothing but negatives there. hypocrite

    Quote Originally Posted by Draco View Post
    So killing innocent tourists, or hijacking planes and flying them into buildings is entirely appropriate?
    STOP FOCUSING ON THE NEGATIVES, but let's not forget that killing innocent people is entirely OKAY. The US Army does it all the time. Even the US justice system does it on occasion. It's okay if they happen to live in the right country or are disgusting pot-smoking tools who may or may not have died choking on his own vomit.

    And if they were more advanced scientifically and what not, then they would have been the ones who brought about the industrial revolution, autmobiles, computers, medicine etc etc.
    Yes we should celebrate Great Britain We should also celebrate France for inventing freedom, and North Africa for couscous, and the Arabs for delivering to us the means to torture kids with algebra. I'm not sure who we should celebrate for colonialism and exploitation and slavery though.

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Sweden's established state church only reversed positions and started allowing same-sex marriage what, 18 months ago? Isn't it a bit early to climb on that particular high horse, Minxy?
    It's not a problem, I can get off it in a couple of months when the US as a whole legalises gay marriage. Anyway as we have established, we shouldn't focus on the negatives. Sweden DID give us ABBA after all, and the Swedes didn't even have to ostracuse gay teens or grope children's crotches at airports to do so
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  4. #34
    Let's not forget btw that Lewk certainly can't take any of the credit for any of the US's awesomeness. After all, he represents the exact opposite of most of the things that have made the US awesome and he probably takes money from the government that could be used to bring about more awesomeness. He should be taking anticredit. In the Middle East, where he belongs
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  5. #35
    I like angry Minx
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
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  6. #36
    The crusades began in late 10xxs and end in late 12xxs. Colonization began in late 17xxs and has never really stopped evolving in to control by proxy. So explain why does this invalidate what I have said? Is it because they had a prolonged breather where the western world was not trying to fuck them up? In any case I do not contend that the west owes anything to the middle east but middle east most certainly does not owe anything to the west.


    I am sorry why would being the region that was the most culturally advanced at one point of time would have to be the same region that invented cars… Most certainly although I am no specialist their inventions were used at on aspect or another of that invention though. Roman Empire was the most advanced nation at the time, in fact remained so right up to the point it disappeared. I have never heard anyone contest this because they did not invent cars…

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
    The crusades began in late 10xxs and end in late 12xxs. Colonization began in late 17xxs and has never really stopped evolving in to control by proxy. So explain why does this invalidate what I have said? Is it because they had a prolonged breather where the western world was not trying to fuck them up? In any case I do not contend that the west owes anything to the middle east but middle east most certainly does not owe anything to the west.
    Western colonization began well before the 1700s, I think. However, for most of the colonial period most of what we would now call the middle east and North Africa was controlled by the Ottoman Empire, not any Western Power. Western Rule of arab lands was relatively brief, taking place between the end of World War 1, when the victorious allies carved up most Ottoman territory amongst themselves, and roughly the middle of the 20th century, when all the various colonies were granted independence.
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  8. #38
    and? russia also played an active role carving up the region but as the post I was responding too was not claiming that middle east shoul be greatfull to it for what little civilization it enjoys i dont see how its relevant.my point was that the wests contribution was largely destructive.
    Although to say that western influence was brief is gross misrepresentation, britain was active in the region long before ww1 wheather it was through direct military action or as was more common via proxy

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Western colonization began well before the 1700s, I think. However, for most of the colonial period most of what we would now call the middle east and North Africa was controlled by the Ottoman Empire, not any Western Power. Western Rule of arab lands was relatively brief, taking place between the end of World War 1, when the victorious allies carved up most Ottoman territory amongst themselves, and roughly the middle of the 20th century, when all the various colonies were granted independence.
    Actually this isn't entirely true. The generally acknowledged beginning of the modern Middle East happened during Napoleon's invasion of Egypt in 1798. It was short-lived, but is generally seen as the beginning of colonial interest in the Middle East. The French also invaded Algeria in 1830 and had a brief intervention in Syria in the 1860s as well as controlling Tunisia by the 1880s, all of which was way before WWI and the fall of the Ottoman Empire.

    Even earlier, the Portuguese controlled a number of locations in the Persian Gulf (Hormuz, Bahrain, etc.) in the 16th century as they were taking over the Indian Ocean.

    Just a few years before WWI, Italy finally got ahold of Libya through a war with the Ottoman Empire.

    Then, of course, there's the Brits. The effectively occupied Egypt by the 1880s (though they had a significant presence there earlier), controlled Aden (and effectively all of Yemen) by the 1830s, Afghanistan (sorta) from 1879, Oman/UAE from the late 19th century, etc. They took over a big chunk of Iran's territory somewhere in there as well.

    That being said, what people think of as the 'core' Middle East - Israel, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Turkey - was largely under Ottoman control until the end of WWI. Much of North Africa and the Persian Gulf, though, had long been under one Western colonial power or another as the power of the Ottoman Empire waned in the 19th century.

  10. #40
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    Well we could have a very long debate about when Italy started to qualify as a western power at all.
    Congratulations America

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Well we could have a very long debate about when Italy started to qualify as a western power at all.
    They came very late to the party when it came to colonies, but I threw it in just for the hell of it.

  12. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Actually this isn't entirely true. The generally acknowledged beginning of the modern Middle East happened during Napoleon's invasion of Egypt in 1798. It was short-lived, but is generally seen as the beginning of colonial interest in the Middle East. The French also invaded Algeria in 1830 and had a brief intervention in Syria in the 1860s as well as controlling Tunisia by the 1880s, all of which was way before WWI and the fall of the Ottoman Empire.

    Even earlier, the Portuguese controlled a number of locations in the Persian Gulf (Hormuz, Bahrain, etc.) in the 16th century as they were taking over the Indian Ocean.

    Just a few years before WWI, Italy finally got ahold of Libya through a war with the Ottoman Empire.

    Then, of course, there's the Brits. The effectively occupied Egypt by the 1880s (though they had a significant presence there earlier), controlled Aden (and effectively all of Yemen) by the 1830s, Afghanistan (sorta) from 1879, Oman/UAE from the late 19th century, etc. They took over a big chunk of Iran's territory somewhere in there as well.

    That being said, what people think of as the 'core' Middle East - Israel, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Turkey - was largely under Ottoman control until the end of WWI. Much of North Africa and the Persian Gulf, though, had long been under one Western colonial power or another as the power of the Ottoman Empire waned in the 19th century.
    Do you remember that time when the Moors occupied Spain for 700 years?
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Do you remember that time when the Moors occupied Spain for 700 years?
    Yeah, that was a real bummer.

  14. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Well we could have a very long debate about when Italy started to qualify as a western power at all.
    Somewhere between 508 BC and 27 BC?

    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    They came very late to the party when it came to colonies, but I threw it in just for the hell of it.
    Or, by another way of thinking about it, they got involved earlier than most in the West.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Somewhere between 508 BC and 27 BC?
    Can it be considered Italy during that time though? Wouldn't it be like calling part of North America the United States, even before it was formally unified and considered the United States?
    . . .

  16. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    Can it be considered Italy during that time though? Wouldn't it be like calling part of North America the United States, even before it was formally unified and considered the United States?
    Well, he said "very long debate," so I figured I'd begin at the beginning. It's certainly considered a western power. And when discussing US history we don't typically begin with the formally unified US, we begin with Christopher Columbus or, depending on levels of PCness or anti-enthnocentrism, with the natives on the Eastern Seaboard.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  17. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Well, he said "very long debate," so I figured I'd begin at the beginning. It's certainly considered a western power. And when discussing US history we don't typically begin with the formally unified US, we begin with Christopher Columbus or, depending on levels of PCness or anti-enthnocentrism, with the natives on the Eastern Seaboard.
    You really consider that period to be one in which Italy existed ?
    Congratulations America

  18. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    You really consider that period to be one in which Italy existed ?
    :looks at a map of Ancient Europe, then looks at a map of modern Europe. Notes geographical similarities:

    Yes?
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  19. #49
    Turns out, even the U.S.A existed back then?
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  20. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    STOP FOCUSING ON THE NEGATIVES, but let's not forget that killing innocent people is entirely OKAY. The US Army does it all the time. Even the US justice system does it on occasion. It's okay if they happen to live in the right country or are disgusting pot-smoking tools who may or may not have died choking on his own vomit.
    On average weighing the good and the bad, the Middle East is pretty shitty. And as I said in the OP I would discourage tourism there and other crappy places in the world (like South Africa).

  21. #51
    on average weighing the good and the bad your home is pretty shitty
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  22. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Turns out, even the U.S.A existed back then?
    I don't think a credible claim can be made about it being a western power back then.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  23. #53
    I don't think a credible claim about it or Italy existing back then, but that doesn't appear to have stopped you.
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  24. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    I don't think a credible claim about it or Italy existing back then, but that doesn't appear to have stopped you.
    I see a well populated, politically-integrated "western" civilization there. Do you think this is about specific governments? Because attendant on that claim is the idea that Germany is the newest power around, seeing as its current shape is a post-Cold War event, and France is still younger than Italy, since the 5th Republic only dates back to 1958.

    Hazir wanted to take a cheap shot at Italy's somewhat chaotic and sometimes ineffective presence in the international sphere, but it doesn't hold up to any rigorous structural comparison with the other major states. One can make a crack about how poorly integrated they are, but hey, the UK's been actively decoupling even the home islands for some time. One might joke about rapidly fallen governments but then you look at a supposedly function core state like Belgium which can't seem to pull off even that much right now. I respond with another cheap shot, one with a far stronger basis, but somehow my whimsy is what you all find objectionable?
    Last edited by LittleFuzzy; 04-29-2011 at 01:05 AM.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  25. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
    "I'd never want to visit a Middle Eastern country. If I want to go back several centuries I'll open up a history book. They should be thankful to the Western world for making their world possible, yet they treat Western tourists like filth."
    Hmm you do realize that the region was more advanced sientifically and culturally at least several nations in the region were, until western civilization came bearing gifts, I think they would come in wanting to give away swords or something and came charging in with cries "Caelum denique!" (Latin, "Heaven at last and "Deus vult" (Latin, "God wills it") all a misunderstanding really (Happens all the time because god is too lazy to communicate clearly). Afterward various great powers mainly US, Britain have done their best to keep the nations in the region weak, in fact repeatedly redrawing the borders of nations in the region. So yes I totally agree with you that they owe their current level of civilization to the west but I think their way of expressing gratitude is entirely appropriate..
    Western powers had minimal influence over the borders of Middle Eastern entities until World War I. And the borders have certainly not been redrawn there "repeatedly". In fact, the borders now are pretty damn similar to how they looked in 1930: http://www.dartmouth.edu/~gov46/mideast-1930.gif
    Hope is the denial of reality

  26. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    I see a well populated, politically-integrated "western" civilization there. Do you think this is about specific governments? Because attendant on that claim is the idea that Germany is the newest power around, seeing as its current shape is a post-Cold War event, and France is still younger than Italy, since the 5th Republic only dates back to 1958.
    So in a few thousand years if the United States as an entity were to fracture and split apart into separate nations, none of them ever achieving major global dominance, and someone stated that we could debate when The Southern People's Democratic Republic of New Florida started to qualify as a world power...you'd go back and cite the time when it was part of the United States? Does this work going backward in time too? Can I claim the Navajo were a major western power because they occupied land that became the United States?
    . . .

  27. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    So in a few thousand years if the United States as an entity were to fracture and split apart into separate nations, none of them ever achieving major global dominance, and someone stated that we could debate when The Southern People's Democratic Republic of New Florida started to qualify as a world power...
    I'm sorry, Illusions, I just can't commit myself to a statement on that right now. You know I don't really like to prognosticate that far head. Anything much beyond 4 or 5 years and I just find things get way too speculative.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  28. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    I see a well populated, politically-integrated "western" civilization there. Do you think this is about specific governments? Because attendant on that claim is the idea that Germany is the newest power around, seeing as its current shape is a post-Cold War event, and France is still younger than Italy, since the 5th Republic only dates back to 1958.
    I see the same one in Iberia, France, Briton, Greece, North Africa, Anatolia &c, which had it's capital on the Italian peninsular. It's not about governments, but about nations as coherent political and cultural entities.
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  29. #59
    Senior Member Draco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    snip
    Yeah, you need to calm down before you break a finger from all that angry typing. I'm not a racist, and in fact I have a few friends who happen to be Muslims, just that they're not the type who'd get all preachy, denounce the Western world and justify suicide bombers. They're also the ones who'd agree with what I said since they know how it really is in their communities, so stop lashing out at me.

    on average weighing the good and the bad your home is pretty shitty
    I'd rather live in the US than Sweden.

  30. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco View Post
    I'm not a racist, and in fact I have a few friends who happen to be Muslims
    http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/

    What you really are is a self-loathing cultural chauvinist who surrounds himself with people whose main purpose is to affirm your ludicrous worldviews. It's all right, we're all willing victims of confirmation bias and we all love yea-sayers, and I suppose it's a good thing you're occasionally exposed to wisdom here on the forums. Although, as noted in another thread, people like you tend to become even more entrenched in your idiocy when you're challenged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draco View Post
    I'd rather live in the US than Sweden.
    This isn't surprising given your character, and, tbh, I'm sure the US would be more glad to have you. They're welcome to have you, we have too many angry young idiots here as it is.

    Hopefully this will strengthen you in your resolve to flee to the land of the Tea Party:

    http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/we...syndrome-pt--2
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

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