The case against a curse filter

[Loki]

I still fail to see why anyone would oppose the existence of a filter that's optional. If people think it's silly to have one, just don't turn it on. Now that voting seems to be working for most people, we can probably move on from this topic unless the voting changes drastically in the next day or so.

[Hazir]

I still fail to see why anyone would oppose the existence of a filter that's optional. If people think it's silly to have one, just don't turn it on. Now that voting seems to be working for most people, we can probably move on from this topic unless the voting changes drastically in the next day or so.

What is more surprising to me is to see that Americans clearly are so used to seeing this kind of censoring going on that they reason from the situation where a curse filter is in place rather than from the situation where speech is free altogether.

I think the question should be what is the lowest level of restriction of free speech we need to let this board function. I am convinced that putting in a filter is well above that threshold; it's an expression of a tendency to treat people as infants just because some words are considered 'naughty'. I am not prone to use the word 'cunt' in a debate, but I really don't see why I should work under a system where I am forced to use the word 'vagina' for my message not to be disfigured with '****'.

[Loki]

What is more surprising to me is to see that Americans clearly are so used to seeing this kind of censoring going on that they reason from the situation where a curse filter is in place rather than from the situation where speech is free altogether.

I think the question should be what is the lowest level of restriction of free speech we need to let this board function. I am convinced that putting in a filter is well above that threshold; it's an expression of a tendency to treat people as infants just because some words are considered 'naughty'. I am not prone to use the word 'cunt' in a debate, but I really don't see why I should work under a system where I am forced to use the word 'vagina' for my message not to be disfigured with '****'.

It's not treating people as infants as everyone is free to turn it off. It is giving a choice to people who don't want to see excessive swearing to avoid having all of that pop up on their screen. No one forces you to use that word. You can still write the word you want and people who are fine with seeing that word on their screen will see it. Those who don't want to see that word won't see it. Why would you want to force your own preferences upon others? I just don't get it. How is this any different to making it optional to view avatars?

[Hazir]

It's not treating people as infants as everyone is free to turn it off. It is giving a choice to people who don't want to see excessive swearing to avoid having all of that pop up on their screen. No one forces you to use that word. You can still write the word you want and people who are fine with seeing that word on their screen will see it. Those who don't want to see that word won't see it. Why would you want to force your own preferences upon others? I just don't get it. How is this any different to making it optional to view avatars?

First answer this; is a vagina something different than a cunt ? Is excrement something different than shit? Is a penis something different than a cock?

What bothers me is the automatism with which people assume that a filter is the norm. I think it's just a silly high culture - low culture dichotomy that has decided that words from high culture that mean exactly the same are acceptable whereas words meaning exactly the same from low culture are 'naughty' and should be censored.

Really Loki, I should not be the one having to fight to get that filter out. If anything you should be the one trying to get it in. As things stand DW (don't take this as a personal attack) followed his cultural impulses and put it in, as if it is normal that people's words are censored. I think his (and your) cultural impulse is intrinsically flawed because it works from the premise that free use of certain words is undesirable.

[Loki]

First answer this; is a vagina something different than a cunt ? Is excrement something different than shit? Is a penis something different than a cock?

What bothers me is the automatism with which people assume that a filter is the norm. I think it's just a silly high culture - low culture dichotomy that has decided that words from high culture that mean exactly the same are acceptable whereas words meaning exactly the same from low culture are 'naughty' and should be censored.

Really Loki, I should not be the one having to fight to get that filter out. If anything you should be the one trying to get it in. As things stand DW (don't take this as a personal attack) followed his cultural impulses and put it in, as if it is normal that people's words are censored. I think his (and your) cultural impulse is intrinsically flawed because it works from the premise that free use of certain words is undesirable.

We didn't just automatically implement the filter. We had a brief discussion where we decided that having an optional filter was the most practical solution. The purpose of this place isn't do undo social constructs. The reality is that some people don't want those words in front of their face, and I see no reason why they should be forced to see them just because you think they're overreacting. The rationale isn't that the use of certain words is undesirable, but rather that there's a difference of opinion about what kind of words are desirable, and if there's a way to make everyone see the kind of words that they want to see, I fail to see how that's a worse solution than enforcing the will of one segment of the community on the other. Again, the choice isn't between having a filter and not having a filter - it's between forcing people to see what they don't want to see and not forcing them. This is especially true in the context of a work environment, where people might not want coworkers or bosses to glance on their screen, see inappropriate words, and make assumptions about that person.

[DecoyMilk]

First answer this; is a vagina something different than a cunt ? Is excrement something different than shit? Is a penis something different than a cock?

What bothers me is the automatism with which people assume that a filter is the norm. I think it's just a silly high culture - low culture dichotomy that has decided that words from high culture that mean exactly the same are acceptable whereas words meaning exactly the same from low culture are 'naughty' and should be censored.

Really Loki, I should not be the one having to fight to get that filter out. If anything you should be the one trying to get it in. As things stand DW (don't take this as a personal attack) followed his cultural impulses and put it in, as if it is normal that people's words are censored. I think his (and your) cultural impulse is intrinsically flawed because it works from the premise that free use of certain words is undesirable.

Are you really this much of a pompous ass? It's a filter. Every member of the forum has the right and ability to either remove it or leave it on as they see fit. It's not a difficult or complex discussion, it's just a simple way for people to decide for themselves whether they would prefer to have a filter of words that are considered rude by the masses. I don't particularly care much for swear words either way, but leaving the filter on means if I am on the forum at work, I can put the filter on if I so please, and take it off when I go home as and whenever I require.

It doesn't require a 10 paragraph essay on the definition of an offensive word, nor do class divides really need to be brought into this. Jesus.

[Hazir]

Are you really this much of a pompous ass? It's a filter. Every member of the forum has the right and ability to either remove it or leave it on as they see fit. It's not a difficult or complex discussion, it's just a simple way for people to decide for themselves whether they would prefer to have a filter of words that are considered rude by the masses. I don't particularly care much for swear words either way, but leaving the filter on means if I am on the forum at work, I can put the filter on if I so please, and take it off when I go home as and whenever I require.

It doesn't require a 10 paragraph essay on the definition of an offensive word, nor to class divides really need to be brought into this. Jesus.

It is a matter of principle; there is a stupid convention (in the US) that gets reinforced every time it is taken for granted. As the word stupid indicates, I am totally against that convention and I think it's worthwhile to fight it now that it is raising its ugly head again in this brand new forum. And whether or not you like it, those 'naughty' words are only naughty because people are sticking to something that is solidly based in an outdated class-divide. The meaning of the words is exactly the same.

[GGT]

Personally, I find the word "cunt" very different in context than any other descriptive word for vagina. There isn't really a male counterpart that I can think of, but it surprises me that Hazir can't see this.

As for the filter, since there is so much debate and disagreement on this, I'd rather this forum use the opt-out, and not censor the default. That might take me to the group who's offended by the use of prick or dick as much as cunt, but I don't think it will.

EDIT the only alternative I can come up with would mean 3 choices, but I don't know the capabilities of phpbb or even vBulletin.

option A = no curse words at all, including shit, fart, damn, hell (PG)

option B = mild filter ala FCC, see George Carlin, the same things we'd hear on tv (PG 13)

option C = no filter whatsoever (M for mature audiences only, aka X rated)

[Hazir]

Personally, I find the word "cunt" very different in context than any other descriptive word for vagina. There isn't really a male counterpart that I can think of, but it surprises me that Hazir can't see this.

As for the filter, since there is so much debate and disagreement on this, I'd rather this forum use the opt-out, and not censor the default. That might take me to the group who's offended by the use of prick or dick as much as cunt, but I don't think it will.

I am aware of the other uses for the word cunt, it was just a random example. It may surprise those who see me reeling against the curse filter, but it is very unusual for me to use curse words in my daily life. I feel definately uncomfortable using dutch versions of four-letter words besides in a very sexual context (meaning : while having sex ).

It is a bit of a comfort for me to see that nobody - so far - voted in favor of a standard filter.

[Loki]

Hazir, no one here is saying cursing is right or wrong. The reality is that some people will be negatively affected by having those curses be displayed on their screens. Surely that's a good reason to have an optional filter?

[DecoyMilk]

It is a matter of principle; there is a stupid convention (in the US) that gets reinforced every time it is taken for granted. As the word stupid indicates, I am totally against that convention and I think it's worthwhile to fight it now that it is raising its ugly head again in this brand new forum. And whether or not you like it, those 'naughty' words are only naughty because people are sticking to something that is solidly based in an outdated class-divide. The meaning of the words is exactly the same.

While that may be so, it is my opinion that there are far more important things to get angry about, Hazir.

[Hazir]

Hazir, no one here is saying cursing is right or wrong. The reality is that some people will be negatively affected by having those curses be displayed on their screens. Surely that's a good reason to have an optional filter?

Hey, I can count the votes too I know where this is going to lead to. And after all is said and done I'm not going to leave this forum because it has a curse filter, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with the principle. And who knows, maybe enough people will start thinking about why the hell we have those stupid filters at all and change their votes

[Loki]

I think people are concerned about more important things, like perfecting the art of procrastination.

[Hazir]

While that may be so, it is my opinion that there are far more important things to get angry about, Hazir.

I'm not angry; just fighting a cause. Against very strong cultural impulses obviously.

[GGT]

I'm not angry; just fighting a cause. Against very strong cultural impulses obviously.

I'm confused then, what's your "cause" again?

[littlelolligagged]

Hazir, no one here is saying cursing is right or wrong. The reality is that some people will be negatively affected by having those curses be displayed on their screens. Surely that's a good reason to have an optional filter?

Hey, I can count the votes too I know where this is going to lead to. And after all is said and done I'm not going to leave this forum because it has a curse filter, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with the principle. And who knows, maybe enough people will start thinking about why the hell we have those stupid filters at all and change their votes

I have no intention of using the stupid filter, but I don't see why it matters if other people want to, so optional seems reasonable enough to me.

But you know, I've fought longer and harder than you have about this on something I don't actually (entirely) believe, sooooooo.

[Hazir]

I'm confused then, what's your "cause" again?

I am against unnecessary censorship under the guise of 'decency'.

Oh and Lolli, I do believe in it. I just don't think I will win it today, but if we all let this pass every time it pops up, we'll be stuck with this nonsense a lot longer than when we don't stop speaking up against it.

[DecoyMilk]

I'm confused then, what's your "cause" again?

I am against unnecessary censorship under the guise of 'decency'.

Oh and Lolli, I do believe in it. I just don't think I will win it today, but if we all let this pass every time it pops up, we'll be stuck with this nonsense a lot longer than when we don't stop speaking up against it.

Random question, but do you think you would be arguing against this if you were heterosexual?

[Hazir]

Random question, but do you think you would be arguing against this if you were heterosexual?

Yes, I deeply resent the patronizing character of the reason why this type of filter exists at all. I'm also pretty certain that on a purely European board this discussion would not have taken place.

[GGT]

What's that mean, Euros go around freely using cunt in their discussions?

What?

Don't suppose my edit caught anyones eye, about 3 options? Too complicated?

[Hazir]

What's that mean, Euros go around freely using cunt in their discussions?

What?

Don't suppose my edit caught anyones eye, about 3 options? Too complicated?

It means 'euros' are just as much or as little inclined to use curse-words, but that - in general - they are as shocked by the practise of 'beeping' them out as they would be by the original word.

[GGT]

Then what's the problem with an opt-out? You get to choose if you want to see a bunch of ***** or some nasty words.

Either it's all in or all out, unless they adopt the US movie standards and ratings, which might be more complicated than this format can handle.

Not sure this place is well suited to what I think you're suggesting---that all "bad" words that've been culturally taught, can be un-taught simply by using them.

[Hazir]

Then what's the problem with an opt-out? You get to choose if you want to see a bunch of ***** or some nasty words.

Either it's all in or all out, unless they adopt the US movie standards and ratings, which might be more complicated than this format can handle.

Not sure this place is well suited to what I think you're suggesting---that all "bad" words that've been culturally taught, can be un-taught simply by using them.

The problem is that it perpetuates something that is intrinsically wrong; unnecessary censorship.

[Loki]

Hazir, you're equating censorship with a person willingly plugging his ears...Free speech means the right to say whatever you want. It does not mean the right to have other people listen to you.

[GGT]

Then what's the problem with an opt-out? You get to choose if you want to see a bunch of ***** or some nasty words.

Either it's all in or all out, unless they adopt the US movie standards and ratings, which might be more complicated than this format can handle.

Not sure this place is well suited to what I think you're suggesting---that all "bad" words that've been culturally taught, can be un-taught simply by using them.

The problem is that it perpetuates something that is intrinsically wrong; unnecessary censorship.

You're opening a can of worms tho, that the site admins and mods may not have time or ability to work on.

You're complaining about US censorship, that places the same sort of foul/nasty connotation to cunt as it does to...what analogous word would that be? Help me out here.

I am genuinely curious and interested. I can't think of any European movie or even song that uses that word. Is this just about that one word?

[Hazir]

You're opening a can of worms tho, that the site admins and mods may not have time or ability to work on.

You're complaining about US censorship, that places the same sort of foul/nasty connotation to cunt as it does to...what analogous word would that be? Help me out here.

I am genuinely curious and interested. I can't think of any European movie or even song that uses that word. Is this just about that one word?

I think you are the one who is obsessing about that word. And probably if I would try a little bit I could find you a TV program that contains that word (or the local version of it) that was intended for broadcasting before 9, or even especially targetted at a younger audience.

[GGT]

You're opening a can of worms tho, that the site admins and mods may not have time or ability to work on.

You're complaining about US censorship, that places the same sort of foul/nasty connotation to cunt as it does to...what analogous word would that be? Help me out here.

I am genuinely curious and interested. I can't think of any European movie or even song that uses that word. Is this just about that one word?

I think you are the one who is obsessing about that word. And probably if I would try a little bit I could find you a TV program that contains that word (or the local version of it) that was intended for broadcasting before 9, or even especially targetted at a younger audience.

Maybe I am retarded, but your point remains illusive. If the default setting is no filter, then what are you complaining about?

If someone happens to see a word that offends them, they can opt out and turn the filter ON. If that means taking fag along with pussy, or the few times cunt is used, then that's their choice.

[Hazir]

In the most simple terms; the curse filter supports unnecessary censorship. Censorship in itself is something worth fighting, unnecessary censorship is so even more.

It is irrelevant that people can turn it on or off, it encourages the idea that unnecessary censorship is an acceptable norm.

[GGT]

In the most simple terms; the curse filter supports unnecessary censorship. Censorship in itself is something worth fighting, unnecessary censorship is so even more.

It is irrelevant if people can turn it on or off, it encourages the idea that unnecessary censorship is an acceptable norm.

Coming off the coat tails of ACC, where some admins and mods thought using damn and hell were "offensive", and at one point tried to filter that speech (yes, they did, the mod forum used to be full of contention that way), I can see your point.

But I don't think this forum is going to be like The Other Place. If they err here, it'll be on the side of openness and vulgarity, and expecting the members to filter out the obnoxious jerks with limited vocabulary.

As it should be.

[EyeKhan]

Hazir, no one here is saying cursing is right or wrong. The reality is that some people will be negatively affected by having those curses be displayed on their screens. Surely that's a good reason to have an optional filter?

What good reason would there be NOT to have an optional filter???