Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 83

Thread: Greece considering exiting the Euro

  1. #1

    Default Greece considering exiting the Euro

    Not got a link (read it from a few blog posts but none with a link, all quoting Reuters). The following is (with no link) one quote I've got:
    (Reuters) - Greece has raised the possibility of exiting the euro zone in discussions with the European Commission and other member states in recent days, Germany’s Spiegel Online reported on Friday.

    The magazine said euro zone finance ministers were meeting in Luxembourg on Friday evening to discuss the Greek crisis and that a possible restructuring of its debt would be on the agenda of the meeting.

    “The government has raised the possibility of leaving the euro zone and reintroducing its own currency,” the report said, without citing its sources.
    Quite a potentially dramatic move if true, it is a last-resort surely to do this? They'll have mammoth trouble raising finances with a new drachma and a big risk of a flight of capital preceeding any exit.

  2. #2
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...74546320110506

    which adds nothing you haven't already quoted, but its a link
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  3. #3
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    In the forests of the night
    Posts
    6,239
    It's a moronic move as
    a) their debt will become even larger if they do this and
    b) they'll damage the other EU countries

    And they might have to leave the EU altogether.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  4. #4
    The only reason it'd make sense to me to do this is if they intended not just to devalue (as that'll increase their euro-denominated debt-burden) but to default altogether.

    EDIT: From a purely selfish Greek PoV, default would be an extreme but potentially positive option. The fallout from that would be incredible.

  5. #5
    There have been a number of people arguing for a while that at least a partial Greek default is necessary (and possibly for Ireland, too). The current interest rates in the ECB bailout plan are simply too high to meet the payments, even with savage austerity.

    An exit from the eurozone may help, though obviously there's a lot of political capital tied up in keeping the eurozone together. As always, the problem has been that there is effectively a two-speed economy in the eurozone, but ECB monetary policy is mostly set by the large core countries, which seriously screws over the periphery.

  6. #6
    Everyone involved is denying this meeting ever took place.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  7. #7
    Conspiracy part of me thinks "they would, wouldn't they"

    Portugal and Ireland etc were denying bailouts until they day they were announced.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,313
    Reuters seems to have pulled the news item. Sounds like the mother of all bad ideas; the rumor may be enough to push Greek banks over the brink.
    Congratulations America

  9. #9
    The more detailed and still existent article from der Spiegal

    Athens Mulls Plans for New Currency
    Greece Considers Exit from Euro Zone

    By Christian Reiermann


    The debt crisis in Greece has taken on a dramatic new twist. Sources with information about the government's actions have informed SPIEGEL ONLINE that Athens is considering withdrawing from the euro zone. The common currency area's finance ministers and representatives of the European Commission are holding a secret crisis meeting in Luxembourg on Friday night.

    Greece's economic problems are massive, with protests against the government being held almost daily. Now Prime Minister George Papandreou apparently feels he has no other option: SPIEGEL ONLINE has obtained information from German government sources knowledgeable of the situation in Athens indicating that Papandreou's government is considering abandoning the euro and reintroducing its own currency.

    Alarmed by Athens' intentions, the European Commission has called a crisis meeting in Luxembourg on Friday night. The meeting is taking place at Château de Senningen, a site used by the Luxembourg government for official meetings. In addition to Greece's possible exit from the currency union, a speedy restructuring of the country's debt also features on the agenda. One year after the Greek crisis broke out, the development represents a potentially existential turning point for the European monetary union -- regardless which variant is ultimately decided upon for dealing with Greece's massive troubles.


    Given the tense situation, the meeting in Luxembourg has been declared highly confidential, with only the euro-zone finance ministers and senior staff members permitted to attend. Finance Minister Wolfgang Schäuble of Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservative Christian Democratic Union (CDU) and Jörg Asmussen, an influential state secretary in the Finance Ministry, are attending on Germany's behalf.

    'Considerable Devaluation'

    Sources told SPIEGEL ONLINE that Schäuble intends to seek to prevent Greece from leaving the euro zone if at all possible. He will take with him to the meeting in Luxembourg an internal paper prepared by the experts at his ministry warning of the possible dire consequences if Athens were to drop the euro.

    "It would lead to a considerable devaluation of the new (Greek) domestic currency against the euro," the paper states. According to German Finance Ministry estimates, the currency could lose as much as 50 percent of its value, leading to a drastic increase in Greek national debt. Schäuble's staff have calculated that Greece's national deficit would rise to 200 percent of gross domestic product after such a devaluation. "A debt restructuring would be inevitable," his experts warn in the paper. In other words: Greece would go bankrupt.

    It remains unclear whether it would even be legally possible for Greece to depart from the euro zone. Legal experts believe it would also be necessary for the country to split from the European Union entirely in order to abandon the common currency. At the same time, it is questionable whether other members of the currency union would actually refuse to accept a unilateral exit from the euro zone by the government in Athens.

    What is certain, according to the assessment of the German Finance Ministry, is that the measure would have a disastrous impact on the European economy.

    "The currency conversion would lead to capital flight," they write. And Greece might see itself as forced to implement controls on the transfer of capital to stop the flight of funds out of the country. "This could not be reconciled with the fundamental freedoms instilled in the European internal market," the paper states. In addition, the country would also be cut off from capital markets for years to come.

    In addition, the withdrawal of a country from the common currency union would "seriously damage faith in the functioning of the euro zone," the document continues. International investors would be forced to consider the possibility that further euro-zone members could withdraw in the future. "That would lead to contagion in the euro zone," the paper continues.

    Banks at Risk

    Moreover, should Athens turn its back on the common currency zone, it would have serious implications for the already wobbly banking sector, particularly in Greece itself. The change in currency "would consume the entire capital base of the banking system and the country's banks would be abruptly insolvent." Banks outside of Greece would suffer as well. "Credit institutions in Germany and elsewhere would be confronted with considerable losses on their outstanding debts," the paper reads.

    The European Central Bank (ECB) would also feel the effects. The Frankfurt-based institution would be forced to "write down a significant portion of its claims as irrecoverable." In addition to its exposure to the banks, the ECB also owns large amounts of Greek state bonds, which it has purchased in recent months. Officials at the Finance Ministry estimate the total to be worth at least €40 billion ($58 billion) "Given its 27 percent share of ECB capital, Germany would bear the majority of the losses," the paper reads.


    In short, a Greek withdrawal from the euro zone and an ensuing national default would be expensive for euro-zone countries and their taxpayers. Together with the International Monetary Fund, the EU member states have already pledged €110 billion ($159.5 billion) in aid to Athens -- half of which has already been paid out.

    "Should the country become insolvent," the paper reads, "euro-zone countries would have to renounce a portion of their claims."
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...761201,00.html
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    EDIT: From a purely selfish Greek PoV, default would be an extreme but potentially positive option. The fallout from that would be incredible.
    It would, assuming Greece was competent enough to do anything with it. As history has shown most of the post-war devaluations have not helped one bit to improve their economy. Greece can devalue all it wants but as long as their economy is rotten to the core it won't matter one bit.
    So all that remains from this potential decision is the stupidity

  11. #11
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    In the forests of the night
    Posts
    6,239
    Quote Originally Posted by Crazy_Ivan80 View Post
    It would, assuming Greece was competent enough to do anything with it. As history has shown most of the post-war devaluations have not helped one bit to improve their economy. Greece can devalue all it wants but as long as their economy is rotten to the core it won't matter one bit.
    So all that remains from this potential decision is the stupidity
    They'd also have to get rid of their massive corruption. I mean, bribes are commonplace down there.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  12. #12
    What if:
    a) Some things are destined to failure?
    b) Some things are never meant to be?
    c) Someone never sees?
    d) Someone never opens?
    e) Somehow we are different?

    What of the times in exile? What of the hours passed?
    What if touches seem too trivial?
    So what if healing takes forever?
    So what if time is meant for others?
    So what is left is but a shatter, and what is broken can't be whole again



    Just noticed your sig, Steely. Who wrote that?

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    What if:
    a) Some things are destined to failure?
    b) Some things are never meant to be?
    c) Someone never sees?
    d) Someone never opens?
    e) Somehow we are different?

    What of the times in exile? What of the hours passed?
    What if touches seem too trivial?
    So what if healing takes forever?
    So what if time is meant for others?
    So what is left is but a shatter, and what is broken can't be whole again



    Just noticed your sig, Steely. Who wrote that?
    A band.
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Crazy_Ivan80 View Post
    It would, assuming Greece was competent enough to do anything with it. As history has shown most of the post-war devaluations have not helped one bit to improve their economy. Greece can devalue all it wants but as long as their economy is rotten to the core it won't matter one bit.
    So all that remains from this potential decision is the stupidity
    Default != Devaluation

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Default != Devaluation
    I'm quite aware of that, but I don't see greece being able to leave the euro without also devaluating whatever value this new drachma would have.
    In short: if greece leaves the zone they're fucked.
    If they stay in the zone they're fucked bith with chance of survival.

  16. #16
    Greece would only leave the Eurozone in order to devalue, that is a given already not a maybe.

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,313
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Greece would only leave the Eurozone in order to devalue, that is a given already not a maybe.
    Greece may want to leave the EMU, but it can't. The countries that could leave don't really have any good reason to do so because they are benefitting from it too much (e.g. Germany).

    Why can't Greece leave you may ask? Well there is this pesky little treaty called the Maastricht Treaty, as it happens the part of the EU that even Brits (except the real nuts) are in favour of; the single market. The thing that guarantees us the freedom of movement for capital, goods and labour.

    Now, guess what would happen if the Greeks get wind of a plan to actually leave the EMU; they then have the great spectre of seeing their money being changed from euro's with value to drachmas that will almost certainly go into free fall. They will want to get their money out of their banking system and preferably even out of the country before the shit hits the fan. We call that a bank run. Banks don't survive full blow bank runs, and you don't really want it to happen to your entire banking system within the same couple of hours.

    A quasi-smart politician may think of that eventuality and simply freeze all assets so that nobody can save his money from being changed into drachmas. But then we have the small problem that such a freeze would be illegal. And all courts between Crete and Luxemburg would rule such freezes invalid, which could even lead to liability for the Greek state for the damage they sustained during the freeze. To prevent something like that from happening, Greece would have to withdraw from the EU alltogether. Theoretically possible since the Lisbon Treaty of course (though nobody really knows how it would work for real). And then Greece would be a bankrupt country outside the EU, with no banking sector, no access to capital markets, while being highly unattractive to put your money in at all (remember that freeze you would need?). They could then try to rebuild it all, all by themselves and hoping that tourists will give them enough of an income to survive.
    Congratulations America

  18. #18
    Agreed, I said that (in not so many words) in the OP: "Quite a potentially dramatic move if true, it is a last-resort surely to do this? They'll have mammoth trouble raising finances with a new drachma and a big risk of a flight of capital preceeding any exit."

    Of course all the potential problems don't mean it can't happen, just it'd be the very last resort option.

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,313
    Anything could happen, but the bottom line is that for Greece there are no easy escapes. Especially not since they don't produce anything anybody outside of Greece is particularly interested in buying. Even if you halve the price of nothing to sell, you've still got nothing to sell.
    Congratulations America

  20. #20
    They produce sunshine.

  21. #21
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    In the forests of the night
    Posts
    6,239
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    They produce sunshine.
    Yeah, that's one produce the 3rd world certainly does not have in abundance
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  22. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,313
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    They produce sunshine.
    Which seems to have resulted in an excessive sense of entitlement. Not much fun that sunshine if you have to endure it longer than planned because they decided to go on strike again.
    Congratulations America

  23. #23
    It's striking to see the different reactions of Greek-Americans, compared to those in the US with ties to Syria, Libya, Egypt. Haiti or Japan. I've read about first-second-third generation immigrants deciding to return to their "homeland" roots, to be involved during their crises, and help shape the future of those countries. Not Greek-Americans, though.

    Greek-Americans (at least the ones I'm exposed to) mostly sigh and seem resigned to Greece's demise. Instead of wanting to return to Greece, taking their ideas and energy for change along with them....like gifts of hope for their future.....there's a tacit admission that things have gone beyond repair.

    Some are trying to bring more extended family to the US. Trying to get younger Greeks into American universities on educational visas, knowing full well they'll end up in the family business because they don't speak English very well and/or their grades don't transfer. Some visit Greece and try to pack western jeans or shoes in their luggage for their family relatives, not declaring them as taxable gifts. Some find ways to call their visits "business" instead of pleasure, because it's not very pleasurable to help family stuck in dire situations.

    Yes, they see how entrenched political and economic corruption has literally ruined Greece (often that's why they emigrated in the first place), but it's so entrenched and wide-spread, that perpetuating the cycle is the only thing to do.



    It's quite sad to watch.

  24. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,313
    Eh, Greece is still in the EU, Greeks have access to jobs all over the continent. All they need to do is head north and work (Poles seem to be quite able to move where the jobs are), no need for dodgy schemes with student visas and the like. Seems to me that your Greek-American friends - while not being entirely wrong about Greece being quite deep down the crapper as we speak - have some crazy notion of Greek people being stuck in it that is not quite true. The idea to pack 'western' stuff as if you're taking chocolate and silk stockings to a third world country is laughable.

    P.S. I expect a default of Greece in some form or shape, with Greece staying inside the eurozone because outside of the zone things are much harder.

    P.P.S.S. I just noticed an article online that the Greeks are having yet another general strike.
    Last edited by Hazir; 05-11-2011 at 09:24 AM.
    Congratulations America

  25. #25
    Hazir, did you understand what I meant about Greek-Americans not wanting to re-patriate to fix the problems, but instead trying to "evacuate" their extended Greek relatives to the US? And how that's a sign that things are really messed up?

  26. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,313
    More like, how inaccurate their ideas about Greece today are. Greeks don't need to be saved by American cousins who give them a way to move to the US. They can save themselves by taking a job, anywhere in the EU.

    Greece also doesn't have a society to rebuild, but to get a grip on its finances.
    Congratulations America

  27. #27
    I was thinking more along the lines of how American-Greeks would expect things to work----report corruption and expect it to be dealt with by authorities. That's obviously now how things work in Greece, after so many generations of corruption, graft and greed. It's easy to say Greeks can move within the eurozone to find employment, but that doesn't change how Greek officials or citizens view taxes, tax collection, or their huge underground economy.

    You can say it's simply getting a grip on its finances, but it's much deeper than that. That's why I said it's going to mean rebuilding a society.

  28. #28
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,313
    Actually, nobody is going to depend on the Greeks doing it all by themselves. The Greek ministry of finance is effectively a subsidiairy of the EU/IMF. Greek people have a solution entirely separate from Greece. Unemployment in Holand is quite low, I am certain farmers here would welcome a couple of thousand Greek workers. Just like they employed thousands of Irish, Poles, Bulgarians, Rumanians etc etc etc.
    Congratulations America

  29. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,313
    This was actually more of a what the fuck thing, but since we also have a Greek topic. In its wisdom the Greek government has decided to ok a plan to build a €90 million F1 race track. I hope the EU and IMF slam down that idiotic plan post haste.
    Congratulations America

  30. #30
    Yippie yippie yeah, invest 90 Million in something that never makes money (well it makes money for the FIA but not for Greece)
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •