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Thread: German Government Shoots Country in Foot; Reloads

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I wonder if they realize that by getting rid of nuclear power, demand for other forms of energy goes up, which means the prices of that energy will also go up. The Saudis and Russians must be laughing their behinds off.
    The effect of little Switzerland would be several times compensated if you guys over there would start to drive with cars instead of tanks to work.
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  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Yes, but I dare say that those same solar cells in, say, the Saharah would be way cheaper, more efficient and would pose less problems.

    Again, for orbital plants you first have to get the stuff up there, then care for it staying up and get the energy down by death rays. Not to mention the problem of where exactly to put them - geostationary will make them big targets for space junk and will render them inoperable half the day. A spot trailing or preceding earth's orbit would put them either way out there or will need massive constant expenditure of energy, not to mention that you'll need several reception stations down on Earth now.
    That's why I object to that notion: It's even less feasible than the space elevator (which would be a prerequisite).

    Didn't Starship Troopers have an orbital ring around Earth?
    The film Starship Troopsers had a ring around Luna, not Earth. Pretty neat concept, though. If it was me, I would build rings around smallish moons, like at Jupiter and Saturn, and spin them up for gravity. The moon would be a gravitational anchor for the orbital structure and a source of resources for living, building and trade.

    Regarding orbital power.... <sigh>.... First I want to say I understand there are big challenges, both engineering and cost. Second, they are not as big as you portray them when compared to the tremendous benefits. What benefits you ask? Assume orbital power stations in leading or trailing orbits with respect to Earth. Or maybe orbits around the moon, I don't know.

    #1. Orbital power is vastly more efficient than ground-based solar. It does not have the atmosphere to contend with and it generates power 24x7.

    #2. With the power collection infrastructure out in space you are not faced with paving the large swathes of Earth in silicon panels that meeting Earth's engergy needs would require. We don't know what covering huge portions of desert areas on Earth with solar panels will do to the local or global climate, but you can bet your left nut it will do something and with little reason to believe we will like it. It will also affect desert ecology and people who care about wildlife and biodiversity will have something to say about it. And what will be the material and maintenance requirements of a sea of panels in a sandy, windy, sun-baked, gravitated, pressurized and oxygenated environment? Your knee jerks to a the answer "a hell of a lot less costly than orbital," I know. Maybe so, but....

    #3. Generating our power from space will require a real space launch industry-either by rocketry, space elevator, or something yet to be imagined. It will also require mining and industrial production in space, using the Moon or asteroids as material sources and maybe industry platforms. Humanity would finally have a good reason to go into space and stay there, to learn how to live there long term and to get from place to place safely and efficiently. And this is a pre-requisite stepping stone to spreading our civilization, and life as we know it, throughout the solar system and maybe beyond. Some will say this is of no value, but I disagree with all my heart. And for those critics....

    #4. Building the industry necessary to construct and support large scale space based power stations will generate gigantic economic activity, opportunity and wealth. Knowledge of the engineering for collecting and processing minerals from the moon and asteroids will not stricly be used to build and support space power stations, it will be put to economic activities currently conducted on Earth, thereby removing more polluting sources from the global environment, and it will be put to economic purposes yet unimagined. It will enable the economic growth model to proceed practically without limit in scope, scale and time without the catastrophic consequences soon to result here in Earth's fragile biosphere.

    #5. There is for practical discussion no limits on orbital solar. There is space to build as much collection surface area as you want. There are materials easily available, once you have an established space industry, to build as much power collection infrastructure as you want. The sun doesn't set out there and it won't burn out in a time frame that matters in the least. There are no clouds or storms or wind or corrosive atmosphere. Yes there are meteoroids and solar storms, but we will learn how to build storm resistant infrastructure and how to limit damage and make repairs from strikes. And there is no biosphere with competing needs to tip-toe around. Every energy source you find on Earth will be limited by space requirements, by fuel availability and aquisition issues, and by polluting effects of one kind or another on the biosphere.
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  3. #123
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  4. #124
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    By the time we have a space elevator, we'll also have fusion.

    Which means that your precious solar sails have just become obsolete.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    By the time we have a space elevator, we'll also have fusion.

    Which means that your precious solar sails have just become obsolete.
    A year or so ago Scientific American published an article evaluating a variety of potential energy source alternatives to fossil fuels. They rated their feasability - technical and cost liklihood they would ever be viable - and they ranked orbital solar power higher than your "precious" fusion. I assume, though I admit I could easily be wrong, the authors and the experts interviewed know a hell of a lot more about these technologies than you or I. And keep in mind we've been 20 years away from a working fusion plant since before you or I were born. And lastly, a space elevator isn't a pre-requisite to build orbital power stations, a viable space industry, or an interplanetary civilization. And double lastly, the point of orbital power isn't strictly for a limitless, clean energy source, its to prod our short sighted, one-world civilization into something that at least spans the solar system; to give us a reason to take a first step.
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  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    A year or so ago Scientific American published an article evaluating a variety of potential energy source alternatives to fossil fuels. They rated their feasability - technical and cost liklihood they would ever be viable - and they ranked orbital solar power higher than your "precious" fusion. I assume, though I admit I could easily be wrong, the authors and the experts interviewed know a hell of a lot more about these technologies than you or I. And keep in mind we've been 20 years away from a working fusion plant since before you or I were born. And lastly, a space elevator isn't a pre-requisite to build orbital power stations, a viable space industry, or an interplanetary civilization. And double lastly, the point of orbital power isn't strictly for a limitless, clean energy source, its to prod our short sighted, one-world civilization into something that at least spans the solar system; to give us a reason to take a first step.
    That's because a couple of those 20 years ago no one had a clue about what we're having problems with today. I will bet you dollars to donuts that any space elevator research program, or orbital power beaming research program, will run into similar issues, although the exact time frames of solution may differ.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  7. #127
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Yeah, that's because 20 years ago we were actually doing research and experiments regarding fusion.

    I don't remember, however, serious research and experiments regarding the technology needed for a space elevator.

    And, if we don't need a space elevator then I would be interested in the other way to get stuff up there. Because, you see, the gravitational well of the Earth is pretty much here to stay.

    And before you proceed to tell me that space elevator technology is simple - the same goes for fusion as well. The basic principle behind, say, a Tokamak is easily understood.

    It's the details which actually matter.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    That's because a couple of those 20 years ago no one had a clue about what we're having problems with today. I will bet you dollars to donuts that any space elevator research program, or orbital power beaming research program, will run into similar issues, although the exact time frames of solution may differ.
    Almost certainly with the space elevator I agree. The orbital power systems I think are much more straight-forward, though I wouldn't bet you on it. I don't know enough about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    I don't remember, however, serious research and experiments regarding the technology needed for a space elevator.
    There was an X-Prize type contest here in the US not long ago for some proof-of-concept technologies. Interesting results. There's been research on it but not much attempt at practical development. We don't actually have anything to use a space elevator for right now that using rockets wouldn't be vastly cheaper considering development and construction costs.

    And, if we don't need a space elevator then I would be interested in the other way to get stuff up there. Because, you see, the gravitational well of the Earth is pretty much here to stay.
    Use heavy lifters to get the initial equipment up to the moon, asteroids and orbital construction locations, then build the lions share of the power stations outside the Earth's gravity well, sling materials or sub-assemblies from the moon or the chosen asteroid(s), or move the asteroid(s) near to the consrutction location.

    And before you proceed to tell me that space elevator technology is simple - the same goes for fusion as well. The basic principle behind, say, a Tokamak is easily understood.
    I don't believe either one is simple. And orbital power stations, while much simpler I think than both of these, would not be easy either. But there's every reason to do it and doing it would only lead to huge benefits.
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  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Almost certainly with the space elevator I agree. The orbital power systems I think are much more straight-forward, though I wouldn't bet you on it. I don't know enough about it.
    The sending and receiving of power might be problematic, for one. We don't use it on Earth, now do we? Although if Tesla were alive, he'd be your man...
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  10. #130
    I know there's been some practical research on this. Microwaves appear to be the sender of choice. I think it was SciAm that described using a stadium sized receiver, said power could be received even on a cloudy day, (though it seems like rain would be a problem - though I've never read anything about it specfically) and that the microwaves would not be intense enough to harm a bird flying through them. And a series of relay satellites bouncing lazer beams around could keep every receiving station bathed in microwaves 24/7.
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  11. #131
    Sounds good. So does the aforementioned tokamak.

    Also, it's "laser", it's an acronym.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  12. #132
    You aren't supposed to care how I spell laser. And the aforementioned tokamak is not going to result in a space industry and the opening of a vast economic opportunity off world. Our species and our civilization need that as much as we need reliable, abundant and clean energy.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
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    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  13. #133
    That's a meta-argument, you were criticizing fusion simply because "it's been 20 years away for 60 years".
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    That's a meta-argument, you were criticizing fusion simply because "it's been 20 years away for 60 years".
    Its worse than that. I am actually basing my criticism of fusion vs. orbital on ratings in an article by SciAm that I have only vague memories of and no solid memory of the underlying reasons for the rank of orbital higher than fusion. The 20 year thing I just tossed into the fray because the time frame of a workable fusion plant has been continuously under-estimated for many decades. And tbh, that must say something about its feasibility, no? In a discussion like this it is very legitimate to say "oh, I dunno if fusion's ever going to be able to produce more energy than it consumes...." but that's not been a consideration for orbital solar. The only issue with it is the start-up costs, and Fusion's got a similar problem, but without the huge potential for jump starting an entire new industry leading to a gigantic economic boom.

    EDIT: Ahhh HA!

    I found the article on the SciAm web site and it actually gives free access so you and Kenny can read it. First, before you try to pull a Loki and shout GOTCHA!!! fusion and orbital solar are ranked the SAME. At the time, I thought that was pretty remarkable, having regarded orbital solar as a bit more pie in the sky than that. The article also talks about high altitude wind, which is really cool sounding, ranking it higher than fusion and orbital. Good read all around....

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...energy-8-ideas
    Last edited by EyeKhan; 05-28-2011 at 03:54 AM.
    The Rules
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