Yes
No
Are you claiming a french citizen can leave the US without having a passport?Originally Posted by wiggin
As for treatment, it's not just DSK, it's the whole level of violence against suspects that is disgusting. A system that makes no discernable difference between a suspect and a convicted person is by definition not a just system.
Congratulations America
Yeah we do, at least I do. Of course, we don't have your average NY criminal in our news, so we don't react to that no, obviously. For comparison: even high profile Dutch criminals are generally not shown fully and have their names abbreviated. E.g. the Fortuyn killer is Volkert van der G., the Van Gogh killer is Mohammed B., and so on. Police releasing a photo of a suspect is rare, and usually only done if there's a danger to the public. And details of criminal cases are generally kept private too, also to protect the victim's privacy. No one's business what happened to her in detail, after all.
So unless you expect us to react to every criminal suspect in the USA, you can hardly be surprised we do react to it with a case that actually is news over here.
BTW, there is a slight rationale for being more cautious with celebrities - they have more image to lose since they are public figures. Though in cases like these, this kind of stuff damages anyone's reputation.
Also, coincidentally, I have not a clue about the French judicial system, but I'd like a source on that if you are going to claim it. And not just conviction rates, because that's a percentage of cases that actually reach the courts in the first place. And do you deny that elected DA's and judges, combined with these kinds of media sensation, have no effect on how suspects are treated?
Keep on keepin' the beat alive!
Eh, there's a difference between tracking down and arresting someone and the perp walk you guys have. Which I think is wrong for anyone, not just famous people.
Keep on keepin' the beat alive!
I agree. Not that it surprises me, I have always considered the US a semi-police state where the police is only marginally better than the criminals.
Congratulations America
Read up on the French judicial process and the role judges play in it.
Hope is the denial of reality
Easy cop out. You try to figure out why visitors to your country consider the police a potential risk to their personal safety.
Congratulations America
If by visitors you mean rapists, then they're welcome to stay away.
Hope is the denial of reality
Sure, if you give a source like I asked.
Keep on keepin' the beat alive!
No, I am talking about people who merely want to do things that are legal in your country, that still don't feel safe when your police is around. Anyway, not that I am going to visit the US any time soon; your power crazy government can go stuff themselves with their obsession about collecting data about everybody and his uncle.
Congratulations America
This thread is strange. The deficiencies of the US justice system don't make DSK innocent.
When the sky above us fell
We descended into hell
Into kingdom come
And.....? Would you like us to comment on how the abc.net reported the story so far, or what?
Of course not.
Congratulations America
That was a quote from her brother; before all they turned to a lawyer. Since when do victims in rape cases need lawyers to report a crime? They wouldn't really need them would they? Of course, if you're in it for the money, then a lawyer makes a whole lot of sense.
Congratulations America
Now you're thinking like a typical conspiracy nut.
Hope is the denial of reality
Agreed, but also pointing out some of those deficiencies doesn't make me claim that he is innocent. And saying that suspect treatment is crap doesn't mean I want preferential treatment for VIPs, it only means I think the treatment is crap.
Keep on keepin' the beat alive!
Quotes from brothers aren't the same as sworn statements by victims. I don't really know what you're getting at (and dammit, these dual discussions between D & D and General Chat always confuse me!) The victim in this case is a Guinea immigrant woman who's employed by a sophisticated hotel, with their own corporate attorneys.
I don't know about you, but if was a hotel maid told to clean an empty suite, and found myself chased around by an unexpected man coming out of the shower.....[insert testimony].....I would run to the hallway and yell for help from my fellow hotel maids. They'd most likely help me to our employee lounge and call management. Somewhere during the crisis 911 would be called.
Seriously Hazir, if you experienced sexual harassment or abuse (or any other crime) during your work hours, the FIRST thing you'd do is dial 911? Or would you enlist the help of your fellow workers and managers, and in your shock pretty much agree to whatever they suggested?
Lawyers represent you and help you evaluate options (do you press charges, do you press for a settlement, etc). And if our system is so unjust, doesn't everyone need protection?
There is a difference between information and ostentation.
Not true, there was an outrage over when a Swiss boy (11) was thrown into American prison like criminal because of sexual abuse of his sister, turned out he watched her pee.Funny that no one in Europe gives a damn when this is done to a non-celebrity.
http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-14937249.html
Google translation:
http://translate.googleusercontent.c...fHmprvz9Zt-bhw
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
And any guilty of him wouldn't make the system right. The damage to him by the system is already done before we know that. As a defense, other countries have problems with this issue too, e.g. Kachelmann process.
The media here usually does that even if it knows the name, something like "Sussana S. (Real name known to the editorial)"For comparison: even high profile Dutch criminals are generally not shown fully and have their names abbreviated. E.g. the Fortuyn killer is Volkert van der G., the Van Gogh killer is Mohammed B., and so on.
Courts are public, but know cameras are allowed. So we get this nice drawings:
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
Interesting though that a victim of rape has settlement on her mind as the first point of business. And if you really need a lawyer to report a violent crime against yourself in your country it's even more proof that your system is broken.
Congratulations America
Our borders aren't exactly airtight. It's routine procedure to deny bail to people who are likely to find safe haven in another country (say, if they are a citizen of a European country that is unlikely to make extradition easy - just look at the mess with Roman Polanski).
Plenty of people are declared innocent by our court system every year, and they walk away free men. I agree there are deficiencies in our justice system, as well as our prison system, but there is a difference between an accused criminal and a convicted one.As for treatment, it's not just DSK, it's the whole level of violence against suspects that is disgusting. A system that makes no discernable difference between a suspect and a convicted person is by definition not a just system.
Fair enough - you're welcome to complain about the so-called 'perp walk'. I honestly don't care much either way, but if your problem isn't DSK's treatment in particular but rather the concept in general, feel free to be uncomfortable.
Ditto to what I said to Flixy above. It's certainly possible to have open court proceedings without a 'perp walk'. Of course, it's a little cumbersome to insist that prisoners be kept out of public places during transit from their prison to the courthouse, but I suppose it's theoretically possible.
Certainly, US law has already implied that 'perp walks' done with the sole purpose of a media event may violate prisoners' Fourth Amendment rights, though this is a very narrow ruling.
Honestly, though, I'm really bothered by this whole thing. The absolute outrage in France and other portions of Europe about his supposedly awful treatment is pretty ridiculous (These are 'violent' images? Really?). I feel like the outrage should be directed at DSK for his alleged crimes, not at fairly standard police procedure in the US.
I have to say, so far the "serious" media in Switzerland always added a "this is how it is in the US". There where several articles pointing out the different valuing of public interest vs. privacy rights and how and why it is done differently.
I am not aware on any pictures of Polanski's arrestment or his deployment from the prison to his house in Gstaad.
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
Holy crap, this is fascinating. Who said she has a settlement on her mind? I'm just listing a few reasons why she might hire a lawyer and now you're off to suggesting that she's a settlement whore.
It's not about reporting a violent crime, it's about choosing your options once its reported.
I've visited America before, never felt unsafe when the Police were around
As for getting legal representation - if you've reported someone both wealthy and powerful for rape, I think it makes sense to get representation. In any nation.
I thought the maid's lawyer said she had had no idea who he was?
Another patent lie; staff at hotels are thoroughly drilled on this type of customers. They tend to know the colour of their shit, just in case. I find it highly improbable that she didn't know. And even if she didn't then a guest in a '$3000 a night room' would without any doubt be the perfect victim for a false rape accusation.
Congratulations America
I am about as white as it gets and I felt unsafe in the presence of US policemen, despite the fact that I didn't do anything even remotely illegal.I've visited America before, never felt unsafe when the Police were around
As for getting legal representation - if you've reported someone both wealthy and powerful for rape, I think it makes sense to get representation. In any nation.
As for representation; sure, once you have reported the crime, but if it's the first thought on your mind, then you're most likely in it for the money.
Congratulations America
At this point, it's fairly clear what the purpose was. Hazir saw the news, was instantly convinced it was a ploy of some kind, and has been seeking reinforcement and/or a soapbox for it.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
I was referring to Polanski to illustrate flight risks. In his case, he's accused of statutory rape - consensual sex with a 13-year old - but he fled to Europe (specifically, France) and has never been extradited. Imprisoning people without bail has its merits in such cases.
For the record, this isn't only with European countries. Many American-Israelis are denied bail because they are considered flight risks to Israel (sadly, it happens semi-frequently in the Haredi world, and while Israel is generally willing to help extradite these guys, it's sometimes challenging to find them). Ditto for others with dual (or non-American) nationality.
Honestly, Hazir, it just seems like you're trying to come up with a way to blame the victim here. While I don't think we should convict DSK in the court of public opinion just yet, I also think that victims of rape should be a priori believed and supported, rather than subjected to this rather crass attempt at calling her a liar. You have zero evidence whatsoever as to your accusations except for the fact that she quickly obtained legal representation (crazy!), which hardly proves anything.
If media reports are to be believed, it appears that DSK isn't even going to bother denying that sexual contact happened, but is going to claim it was consensual. That's already pretty improper behavior, given the power differential between a maid paid minimum wage and man who can afford that hotel room, and it's not exactly news that men are prone to abusing their power. The only question is whether she was coerced or not, which presumably will come out in the trial.
There's an interesting phenomenon in ancient legal cases dealing with a 'modeh b'miktzat' (a 'partial admission'). That is, if someone is accused of certain behavior and admits that part of it is true, they are held to a higher standard than if they had no admission of guilt at all. Obviously that's not how our justice system works, but it's not a bad principle to think about.
Um, why?
This is all just so much blah blah blah.
No one except the jury is furnished with all the known and pertinent facts at the point this comes to trial.
~
Tempted to start a thread on the cause for having a total media blackout for any person accused of any crime until the final outcome of any resulting trial (or non-trial) is known.
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