DSK, must be pretty stupid if the charges are real.
Yes
No
So, did he or didn't he?
DSK, must be pretty stupid if the charges are real.
Congratulations America
His lawyers are claiming he has a solid alibi. Which is presumably to say they can prove he wasn't there or was with someone else.
Meanwhile, the conspiracy theories begin about a politician no American heard of until 48 hours ago.
May 16, 2011
In France, Skepticism and Anger Over Official’s Arrest
By STEVEN ERLANGER and KATRIN BENNHOLD
PARIS — France’s shock at the arrest of Dominique Strauss-Kahn on sexual assault charges turned among some to suspicion and anger Monday, with his defenders questioning the initial New York police account and speculating about entrapment, and many others characterizing the photos of the handcuffed suspect as insulting and unfair.
Mr. Strauss-Kahn, 62, was arrested on charges of attempted rape and illegal imprisonment of a chambermaid in a French-owned hotel in midtown Manhattan, the Sofitel, and was arraigned on Monday in New York.
The charges against a man thought to have the best chance of becoming France’s next president in elections only a year away, and who is the prominent managing director of the International Monetary Fund, have exploded most political assumptions here and caused some soul-searching, especially among the French press, about whether it had failed to dig deeply into Mr. Strauss-Kahn’s sexual history. But some of Mr. Strauss-Kahn’s supporters raised questions about the American handling of the case and hinted at a role by his political opponents.
The blogosphere and news outlets, especially on the Internet, were busy trying to dissect Mr. Strauss-Kahn’s day before he boarded the Air France flight to Paris. Citing unnamed allies of Mr. Strauss-Kahn, they suggested that he had lunch with his daughter before boarding the plane to make a flight that had been reserved in advance, that he may have checked out of his hotel before lunch with his daughter, and that he may have had lunch after the alleged attack took place. In other words, they suggested, he did not flee in haste, as the police had said in their comments on the case.
The Socialist politician Jean-Christophe Cambadélis, a close ally of Mr. Strauss-Kahn, said: “In the file, there are a lot of contradictions beginning with the escape, which was acknowledged today didn’t happen.”
On the Web site of RMC.fr radio, for example, claiming to cite information from Mr. Strauss-Kahn’s lawyers, the writers laid out the shape of an alibi — that he checked out of the hotel around 12:30 p.m., returning his keys to reception, and met his daughter for lunch before going to the airport, where he realized he had lost one of his cellphones, and called the hotel to ask that it be returned to him at the airport. The New York police originally estimated the time of the alleged attack on the maid at about 1 p.m., but have since revised it to around noon.
Another question raised was about the timing of the flood of Twitter posts around the scandal, with the first one reportedly sent by a French student who is a member of President Nicolas Sarkozy’s center-right party.
It was at 4:59 p.m. New York time that J_Pinet posted this message on Twitter: “A friend in the United States just told me that DSK was arrested by police in a hotel an hour ago.”
Twenty-four minutes later, a post by Arnaud Dassier, who ran Mr. Sarkozy’s online election campaign in 2007, spread the news further, apparently before any New York newspaper. Mr. Dassier is a shareholder in the Web site Atlantico.fr, which Mr. Strauss-Kahn’s allies accused this month of disseminating photographs of him and his wife getting into a Porsche in a bid to tarnish his reputation with common voters.
On Monday, Atlantico published what it said were reports from the police and the French Consulate in New York about the case, asserting that Mr. Strauss-Kahn had scratches on his back and left traces of DNA behind.
Others said that a setup seemed even more implausible than the alleged events. Bradley D. Simon, a former federal prosecutor turned criminal defense lawyer with offices in New York and Paris, thought the idea “far-fetched” and said, “The only way there can be a setup in the first place is that there is an acknowledgement that he is predisposed to such actions.”
Or as Libération, normally sympathetic to the left, concluded in an editorial Monday: “Dominique Strauss-Kahn knew that he was his own worst enemy.”
But there was also outrage about the photos of Mr. Strauss-Kahn cuffed in custody. While the so-called perp walk is a New York police tradition, allowing the press to get photographs of a suspect, a 2000 law in France tries to reinforce the principle of the presumption of innocence by criminalizing the publication of photos of an identifiable person in handcuffs who has not yet been convicted.
The former French justice minister whose name is on the law, Elisabeth Guigou, said she found the photos of Mr. Strauss-Kahn in cuffs indicative of “a brutality, a violence, of an incredible cruelty, and I’m happy that we don’t have the same judiciary system.”
Ms. Guigou, a Socialist like Mr. Strauss-Kahn and a member of Parliament, told France Info radio that the American system “is an accusatory system,” while in France, “we have a system that takes perhaps a little more time but which is, despite everything, more protective of individual rights.”
Max Gallo, a prominent historian and commentator, agreed that the two systems are different. “It’s the first time in the history of France that a top-level figure is treated like a common criminal whose guilt is already established,” he said. “But it also manifests an egalitarianism in the American justice system that surprises us in France.”
He said, “People are asking: Was it really necessary to do that?”
The images struck several commentators as being more akin to scenes from American television crime dramas — dubbed versions enjoy tremendous popularity in France, among them “C.S.I.,” known as “Les Experts,” and “Law and Order,” known as “New York Police Judiciaire” — than from French life.
“It was images from Greek tragedy mixed with those of American TV series,” the centrist politician François Bayrou said at a news conference. “Everyone who has seen these images has had their throat tighten, they were so arresting and confounding. It’s the destiny of a man that is toppling, with very important consequences for himself, his party, his country.”
There was also some media introspection. “There is media shyness when it comes to powerful political people,” said Alain Frachon, a senior editor at Le Monde. “We are ready to argue their ideas, but there is a shyness about their lives.” Still, he said: “The question of possible crimes is different. This is not a national omerta, the situation is not the same as 20 years ago.”
Maïa de la Baume and Scott Sayare contributed reporting.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/17/wo.../17france.html
Honestly, Hazir, what's the point of the poll? Is law a popularity contest?
Whether or not he did it, unless he can very quickly and very convincingly refute the charges, his political career is over. The French are willing to overlook a lot of sexual improprieties in their politicians, but sexual assault is not one of them.
So you are willing to entertain the thought that he may be able to refute the charges?Originally Posted by wiggin
Actually, there is fairly widespread doubt about the facts here in Europe. A lot of people outside the circle of usual suspects doubt the veracity of the claims. It wouldn't be the first time false charges of this kind were used to destroy a European appointee at an international organisation. The fact that the US public didn't know DSK is immaterial, the people who benefit from this knew him well enough.
I also find it remarkable that EU leaders almost immediately have started firing shots about his replacement by nobody else than another EU appointee.
Congratulations America
Of course it's possible; innocent until proven guilty and all. He should get the same protections afforded any other accused criminal. It doesn't change the fact that a poll is utterly meaningless. Neither you nor I have any data whatsoever as to his guilt or innocence. Why make a poll on it?
I don't get this. Do you honestly think there's some conspiracy to carry out character assassination? Oh, I suppose the maid could have made it up, but it seems awfully far-fetched that some part of the US government is trying to discredit a French politician by charging him with sexual assault. This is an incredibly high profile case, and I doubt their ability to carry out such an elaborate farce for such ridiculous ends.Actually, there is fairly widespread doubt about the facts here in Europe. A lot of people outside the circle of usual suspects doubt the veracity of the claims. It wouldn't be the first time false charges of this kind were used to destroy a European appointee at an international organisation. The fact that the US public didn't know DSK is immaterial, the people who benefit from this knew him well enough.
Honestly, I feel like people are just willing to believe conspiracy theories because they're fun or something. I heard plenty of similar things about OBL's death, though it's obviously a ridiculous suggestion that he wasn't found and killed.
Ender, people make up their minds about criminal accusations and court cases they read about long before any jury has any say on the matter.
Such is the media age we live in.
Okay, but do you think this is actually some kind of conspiracy? To hire a maid at a $3000/night hotel for a few months/years, assign her to his room and then make up these charges?
Eh, you could also just bribe a maid who already works there of course.I'm not sure to be honest, but it seems possible. The facts are a bit odd, but we'll see. I have to agree with the article that it really does outline the difference between European and American justice - the police here would avoid pictures like these, and keep details from the public (to protect both victim and suspect). And I am not a fan of the American way. If he turns out to be innocent, stuff like that is pretty damn damaging.
Keep on keepin' the beat alive!
Conspiracy theories are always premised on the fact that powerful people can't possibly be inept or stupid, and if something bad happens, they must have known in advance or been set up. Needless to say, plenty of really powerful people are neither as smart or powerful as people believe.
Last edited by Loki; 05-17-2011 at 04:47 PM.
Hope is the denial of reality
Something slogtly different is the main topic in the media of Switzerland, they ask how it can be that accussed people get stripped of their privacy rights until proven. To a certain degree this happens here too, but our police can't give out names and pictures just like that, you need to get at least a court involved.
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
I think that powerful people can be incredibly stupid. I also believe that it is possible that people are the victim of a stitch up by opponents. Or hostile people using false accusations to further political gains.
The story as is presented is as fishy as it gets; are we seriously to believe that a man lies in ambush for a random chambermaid to walk into his hotelroom in order to rape her? What's the deal with stressing that he was naked when he walked out of his own bathroom? He's only supposed to walk out of his bathroom in a 3-piece suit?
As far as I am concerned the did he didn't is a complete toss up. The American government has got a reputation to keep up with this kind of games.
Congratulations America
Whatever happens either way, I want to know why my taxes are going on him staying in a $3,000 a night room. That alone has damaged my view of the IMF.
Are you sure he wasn't the one who paid for it?
Hope is the denial of reality
I doubt it.
You may doubt what you want. But it's just as likely that he paid for this himself; he's loaded. And if he didn't it's very unlikely the IMF actually paid the $3000 that's being quoted all over.
Congratulations America
I don't get this reasoning. Openness about who's arrested and when means you can't have secret detentions. Court proceedings are open to the public to a large extent to ensure that there is public reporting on trials that may be fishy.
I would be very worried if I was arrested in a country that didn't divulge my name and accused crime to the public, let alone allow reporters and others into the legal proceedings.
I really don't get you.
In the UK children don't get their names published, adults do. I think that's fair.
Probably a reasonable compromise in the case of kids.
What I mean is that I am not convinced at all that this rape/assault took place. I am inclined to believe that the accusation is being used. And I don't trust American justice.
Congratulations America
Remind me how frequently America falsely imprisons famous people? If anything, I would think someone could make the opposite case that famous people are usually let free when they are guilty...
Hope is the denial of reality
His passport could have been taken and he'd been unable to leave the country. There was no reason whatsoever to subject him to treatment that's hardly any better than if he were guilty before the trial has even begun.
Congratulations America
Fair point, but the damage is already done (unless you can spin it as an attack from Sarkozy base, I suppose).
The point is that allegations of rape, or pedophilia, etc., are very damaging to a person (and can lead to physical threats, stones through windows, etc.) and even if someone is acquitted or released without charges, people will associate the name with it. Not to mention a lot of people will still think he did it. Suspects are only suspects, not convicts, and have a right to privacy.
News here all mention that police chiefs, DA's and judges are often elected and acting tough on a VIP gets them votes. (show no mercy to those darn criminals, who cares if it are only suspects)
Keep on keepin' the beat alive!
I.E. He's being treated like any other person accused of a similar crime. There was actually an article in the NY Times saying that Frenchmen are shocked that Americans would treat a famous person the same as they would anyone else. Truly shocking.
Funny that no one in Europe gives a damn when this is done to a non-celebrity. Coincidentally, the French judicial system almost presupposes guilt, and the conviction rate reflects that. But that's obviously less important than how someone is portrayed on TV.
Hope is the denial of reality
Do you trust Americans to utilize scientific/forensic DNA appropriately? If the chambermaid has his DNA in her mouth and/or or under her fingernails plus latent signs of bruising around her throat or wrists (indicating a struggle), would you believe he sodomized her orally? If the hotel CCTV shows her running from his hotel room, trying to pull her clothes together and crying for help, would you believe she was victimized?
Are you saying a famous European would ever commit a crime against a lowly African? Impossible.
Hope is the denial of reality
Maybe, if it weren't for the fact she got a lawyer before she reported anything.
Congratulations America
Who are you speaking to? Why don't you use the quote function? Her nationality or race doesn't mean a damn thing in the US.....at least in our ideal. If she's Guinea then she's probably familiar with the French language. I'd be interested to know if language was claimed as some "misunderstanding" or "defense".
<I already posted about VIPs in General Chat regarding Arnold's dilemma.>
At this point the "news" is going to report things that may or may not be reliable. At a posh hotel like Sofitel, I would hope and expect that their management was just as concerned about their staff as their patrons, and would dial 911/contact police AND notify their corporate legal staff. I'd say that's some good thinking from their management staff, actually.
He's a reasonable flight risk, so he's been denied bail. I don't understand why this is shocking or unusual.
I agree it's damaging, and for good reason. But if you were the NYPD, what would you do? Be afraid to track down an accused rapist just because he's famous and it might damage his credibility?
The maid's brother says his sister did not stop sobbing when she called him to say she had been sexually assaulted by one of the world's most powerful men.
Working at a cafe in Harlem, the man identifying himself as the alleged victim's brother recalled his "good Muslim" sister crying inconsolably.
"She did not stop crying. I told her, 'don't hurt yourself'. I wanted to get a lawyer for her. I've never heard her like that before. She was completely devastated," he said
source
Congratulations America
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