Judging teachers/professors

[RandBlade]

Yeah nice try mister, but let's ask ourselves: how many are on strike and for how long? How many kids are affected? In which ways are they affected? How does this compare to other harmful influences on their education? How does it compare to the potential positive effects of teachers managing to push through important beneficial changes to their profession, changes that make them happy and able to teach well?

What "important benefical changes" to education is ensuring that the education budget gets spent on pension provisions that nobody else in a similar position can dream of? Its got nothing to do with the quality of education.

Damned good thing they're striking instead of quitting en masse. Perhaps it's because they care about good teaching as much as they care about themselves.

I'd have more respect for them if they quit. Striking means the only thing they're interested in is themselves, there's nothing noble about it. Its selfish.

The only thing I want to know from you is why you don't think good education is important. Is it because you don't think mankind and the world it inhabits is important? I mean you can nitpick about global warming but when it comes to teachers and teaching you have no interest in getting a nuanced picture. What the hell?

You have me totally wrong. I think a good education is very important. I think its one of the most important things there is in the world, more important than anything else.

Why I don't think a teachers pension justifies denying a child a quality education. There is nothing justifiable or nuanced about denying a child an education.

"Deny" my ass. We all know who wants to deny kids good schooling in addition to denying teachers the chance to do their job well in a way that makes them happy.

Who? Not me.

But I'll concede that your position would make sense if education were perfect rather than fucked and teachers were rallying against great education rather than against stinky education.

It'd help if you knew what you were talking about. Nobody is striking on behalf of better education.

Since when is it forbidden for people to go on strike for changes to their contracts? I dare say that your views are despicable. How dare those teachers go on strike! Accept changes without recourse! You have to be happy that we even allow you anywhere near our children! Yeah, great attitude right there.

So you think education is so unimportant that if we don't bother to actually do it, well what's the harm? Nice to know.

Yes, how dare those teachers refuse to do their job? Its too important. It is illegal for the Police to go on strike in the UK. Education is as important to me, teachers should be forbidden from striking.

And you dare tell me that you respect teachers. Heh. That's a really moronic notion. Nevermind that those changes are usually state- or even nation-wide. So you're telling me that if you don't like it, you have to quit being a teacher altogether. Yeah, right. And of course, teachers do magically grow on trees. Great logic right there.

How do the Police cope without striking? No its unimaginable isn't it.

I guess you just don't think teaching is as important as the Police force.

[Khendraja'aro]

Yes, how dare those teachers refuse to do their job? Its too important. It is illegal for the Police to go on strike in the UK. Education is as important to me, teachers should be forbidden from striking.
How do the Police cope without striking? No its unimaginable isn't it.

I guess you just don't think teaching is as important as the Police force.

Wait, do teachers rescue their children from murderers? Do they prevent life-threatening crimes now? THAT, my dear, is the reason why the police is not allowed to go on strike. Yes, you may believe that teachers are as important as the police. Doesn't mean that they actually are.

Take both actual examples of strikes. What will happen if teachers go on strike? Well, the kids don't go to school for some days, maybe a week. Big deal. Happens already all the time if the teacher or the children become ill. It also happens on a regular basis (called the "holidays"). One week is not that much, in Chemistry for example that amounts to 2 or 3 hours of lessons.
Okay, what will happen if the police goes on strike? Hmmh, do I really need to paint you a picture? Really?

And you still want to tell me that the police is as important as teachers? Heh. You're a bit misguided.

[RandBlade]

So your position now is that teachers aren't that important, we can cope without them?

[Flixy]

Rand, you say you prefer them all quitting en masse. But that leaves a gap of at least a month without teachers, so presumably a one day strike is better. For the children, at least.

Also I find it interesting that you of all people, being capitalist and all, think teachers should only teach because they want to teach, no matter how poorly it pays. You can't imagine that when the conditions get crappier than when you signed up, and you have a lot of job options outside education that pay a lot better, you may reach a point where you don't want to teach anymore? I figured you of all people would think people would never even begin to start teaching, let alone keep teaching if the conditions get worse and worse.

[Khendraja'aro]

So your position now is that teachers aren't that important, we can cope without them?

Good evening, I am RandBlade and I don't understand increments.

Okay, I see I'll have to explain the concept to you. You said: "It is illegal for the Police to go on strike in the UK. Education is as important to me, teachers should be forbidden from striking."

I told you that for obvious reasons the police is more important. You see the "more" here? That's a comparison. Just like 5(five) is more than 4(four).

However, 4(four) is not equal to 0(zero). And just like that, teachers are important, just not as important as the police. Just like 5(five) is more than 4(four) which in turn is more than 0(zero).

And that my dear, concludes our lesson for the evening. I'll be here all week in case you're confused by other concepts like "moderation" or "numbers".


I'll let you in on a secret: As a teacher, you have a certain amount of hours in a school year. Let's make that 60 for a 2 hours per week subject.A good teacher will then create a lesson plan at the beginning of the year, detailing which subject is taught in what order for how many hours. However, a good teacher won't use all 60 hours for his plan. He'll only use 40 (that's 2/3 (two thirds), just in case you get confused again). Why? Because there's always something which takes away the available hours. Illness. The class is slower than planned. A field trip you didn't know about. And so on.
So, as you see, a teacher not being there is not such a huge catastrophe. Because good teachers already planned for that.

[RandBlade]

Rand, you say you prefer them all quitting en masse. But that leaves a gap of at least a month without teachers, so presumably a one day strike is better. For the children, at least.

A teacher who quits will have to serve their notice and be replaced. Also you won't get as many to quit - and certainly not on the same day, as you will to quit.

Also I find it interesting that you of all people, being capitalist and all, think teachers should only teach because they want to teach, no matter how poorly it pays. You can't imagine that when the conditions get crappier than when you signed up, and you have a lot of job options outside education that pay a lot better, you may reach a point where you don't want to teach anymore? I figured you of all people would think people would never even begin to start teaching, let alone keep teaching if the conditions get worse and worse.

Which is why I'm happy for people to try and move on if they can. I'm not happy for them to try and blackmail pupils education saying "I'm the teacher, you can't replace me, but I'm not going to teach".

Good evening, I am RandBlade and I don't understand increments.

Okay, I see I'll have to explain the concept to you. You said: "It is illegal for the Police to go on strike in the UK. Education is as important to me, teachers should be forbidden from striking."

I told you that for obvious reasons the police is more important. You see the "more" here? That's a comparison. Just like 5(five) is more than 4(four).

However, 4(four) is not equal to 0(zero). And just like that, teachers are important, just not as important as the police. Just like 5(five) is more than 4(four) which in turn is more than 0(zero).

And that my dear, concludes our lesson for the evening. I'll be here all week in case you're confused by other concepts like "moderation" or "numbers".

I'll let you in on a secret: As a teacher, you have a certain amount of hours in a school year. Let's make that 60 for a 2 hours per week subject.A good teacher will then create a lesson plan at the beginning of the year, detailing which subject is taught in what order for how many hours. However, a good teacher won't use all 60 hours for his plan. He'll only use 40 (that's 2/3 (two thirds), just in case you get confused again). Why? Because there's always something which takes away the available hours. Illness. The class is slower than planned. A field trip you didn't know about. And so on.
So, as you see, a teacher not being there is not such a huge catastrophe. Because good teachers already planned for that.

When I was at university, a lecturers union went on strike during the build up to final exams. Classes, revision, etc, etc were all majorly disrupted (more for some students than others in this case due to not all lecturers striking) with threats to take the strike right into the exam period. I don't think its right that a private dispute between them and their employers is timed to cause disruption to peoples education.

As for good teachers, I disagree. I agree that the generic and pretty weak courses can be taught in 2/3rds of the time. I don't think that we should play to that though, I think a really good teacher should push their students beyond the base minimum of the curriculum. I was in the top-set of all courses at school, skipped an academic year and took a class with 2 years of maths combined into one so that by final year I could be taking uni-level courses. While the school scheduled in entire weeks away during the term to go camping, took a week touring South Australia with the school choir etc, etc, etc

My school was excellent and pushed its pupils well beyond the bare minimum. That is good teaching.

[Flixy]

Which is why I'm happy for people to try and move on if they can. I'm not happy for them to try and blackmail pupils education saying "I'm the teacher, you can't replace me, but I'm not going to teach".

Considering your capitalist stance, you should think that if people are fed up and move on, the replacements will be less good (why else would they work as a teacher, money is all that matters after all). Plus, you forget one huge thing: there is a teacher shortage (at least here, anyway). How can quitting teachers be replaced if they already have trouble finding adequate teachers? There are a lot of unqualified teachers here now, because there simply are not enough qualified ones. I'm all for being stricter about who can teach, and attracting good teachers while losing the bad ones, but at the moment there are simply not enough good ones. Make the job attractive first, get the good ones interested, then lose the bad ones. A bad teacher is still better than no teacher.

So yes, I do prefer them going on a one day strike to show how bad the situation is and get attention for it. Schools won't collapse if one day misses, but they will if too many teachers quit.

BTW, over here the police can strike, to a certain extent. They are not allowed to 'strike' on essential services, e.g. anything related directly to the public safety like patrols, security details, etc., but they are allowed to strike on the non-essential services, for example last year a football match was canceled because the police were on strike that day and would not provide the needed manpower. Football matches being non-essential, the courts upheld the strike. However, it is only a last resort after all other options have been exhausted, if they decide to strike lightly courts will immediately forbid it. Only after they have tried all other forms of negotiation it is allowed.

When I was at university, a lecturers union went on strike during the build up to final exams. Classes, revision, etc, etc were all majorly disrupted (more for some students than others in this case due to not all lecturers striking) with threats to take the strike right into the exam period. I don't think its right that a private dispute between them and their employers is timed to cause disruption to peoples education.

Our of curiosity, was that a one-day strike, or longer? Timing definitely seems crap. I can't recall a lecturer strike at university here, but a while back a couple of hundred professors (in toga's) held a march in The Hague in protest, pretty impressive sight. Same day there was also a massive student protest, universities also rearranged exams or offered alternatives to allow students to join in. I think it was the first time ever that universities and students were protesting together, rather than against eachother.

As for good teachers, I disagree. I agree that the generic and pretty weak courses can be taught in 2/3rds of the time. I don't think that we should play to that though, I think a really good teacher should push their students beyond the base minimum of the curriculum. I was in the top-set of all courses at school, skipped an academic year and took a class with 2 years of maths combined into one so that by final year I could be taking uni-level courses. While the school scheduled in entire weaks away during the term to go camping, took a weak touring South Australia with the school choir etc, etc, etc

My school was excellent and pushed its pupils well beyond the bare minimum. That is good teaching.

Eh, you both have a point. It's good to push beyond the bare minimum. Which is another reason to have your plans so that you can teach the required stuff in less than the hours that are available for it. You can use the remainder to push further, or to make up for lost time for various reasons (illness, or in my case my high school was closed for two days after a fire for example). Also I don't think your anecdote about being a top student at a good school is relevant here, unless I miss the point you are trying to make (can't be that much of a top student if you can't spell 'week' though . The fact that your teachers pushed you has not much to do with the fact that teachers do count on some lost time during a term, and plan accordingly. You never know what will happen, after all.

[GGT]

What "important benefical changes" to education is ensuring that the education budget gets spent on pension provisions that nobody else in a similar position can dream of? Its got nothing to do with the quality of education.
I'd have more respect for them if they quit. Striking means the only thing they're interested in is themselves, there's nothing noble about it. Its selfish.

Again, that's an opinion on unions. Like it or not, public teachers conceded salary in order to get the benefits "nobody else can dream of". That's true. There's some benefit-envy and job-safety coveting going on. It turned into tax-payer anger as the private sector hemorrhaged jobs, lost their health insurance and unemployment benefits, watched their 401-K disappear, and ~25 million can't find work.

The unions would be irrelevant if everyone had access to affordable healthcare, a protected defined-contribution retirement system. But we don't. We can kick public workers into the same pool as private workers....so everyone has shitty benefits. Or we can figure out a universal/national health service. That's what the fight is really about.

[Khendraja'aro]

As for good teachers, I disagree. I agree that the generic and pretty weak courses can be taught in 2/3rds of the time. I don't think that we should play to that though, I think a really good teacher should push their students beyond the base minimum of the curriculum.

My dear, I'm talking of real-life teaching here, not the lofty castle-in-the-sky notion of teaching you seem to have. Those two-thirds do not exist because teachers don't want to work. It's a realization that plans and reality don't match up if you don't plan for random chance. It's a buffer you need.

I'd love to you struggle in school when you realize that your 100% plan won't work because, oops, this lesson was a firedrill and, damn, half the class is ill from something or other and, oh no, someone forgot to tell you about the field trip and, for heavens sakes, you estimated this lesson only to take two hours and now it will take four because you forgot something.

You obviously did not get the point... again. Maybe it's because you don't know the first thing about teaching? Yes, I know you've been to school. That makes you, what? An expert on being a pupil.

[Nessus]

Wait, do teachers rescue their children from murderers? Do they prevent life-threatening crimes now? THAT, my dear, is the reason why the police is not allowed to go on strike. Yes, you may believe that teachers are as important as the police. Doesn't mean that they actually are.

In the eyes of world capital, schools are primarily factories for producing new workers. Basic skills are the difference between a useless, fundless consumer-unable-to-consume and working bodies to be used and discarded when worn out. Just as the police exist to secure property rights and to a lesser extent mitigate worker loss to societal unrest and violence, teachers exist to produce workers. And capital cannot be generated without workers, so teachers are as important as police, just in the longer term.

Oh man, this is fun!

[Veldan Rath]

Wait, do teachers rescue their children from murderers? Do they prevent life-threatening crimes now? THAT, my dear, is the reason why the police is not allowed to go on strike. Yes, you may believe that teachers are as important as the police. Doesn't mean that they actually are.

Take both actual examples of strikes. What will happen if teachers go on strike? Well, the kids don't go to school for some days, maybe a week. Big deal. Happens already all the time if the teacher or the children become ill. It also happens on a regular basis (called the "holidays"). One week is not that much, in Chemistry for example that amounts to 2 or 3 hours of lessons.
Okay, what will happen if the police goes on strike? Hmmh, do I really need to paint you a picture? Really?

And you still want to tell me that the police is as important as teachers? Heh. You're a bit misguided.

Just to nitpick police and teachers are both important, but in asymmetrical ways.

If a teacher gets sick, then a sub is called in to take over. If they are on strike there is no one to take over.

If they go out on strike even for a couple of days, massive hits to productivity can occur as parents scramble to find care for younger kids (or just stay home, using up PTO, or taking a hit on their job if they don't have any left (or didn't have it to begin with). And if by some miracle they do find care (and it would be as a lot of day cares do NOT take impromptu or non scheduled customers), then they have to pay through the nose for that care...possibly wiping out any gains for going to work to begin with.

But yes, I'd rather have a cop patrolling my neighborhood than a teacher

A side note, what if a certain teacher is actually happy with their situation, but had to join the union just to have a job, should they be forced to strike?

[Nessus]

Oh man, that's true! I totally forgot babysitting for the work force as a part of the schools' function.

[Veldan Rath]

While not the intent, it is the end effect. Train the new labor force so the current labor force can...labor.

[Flixy]

A side note, what if a certain teacher is actually happy with their situation, but had to join the union just to have a job, should they be forced to strike?

Having to join unions is something that should not happen anyway, and does not happen here.

[GGT]

Having to join unions is something that should not happen anyway, and does not happen here.

Because you have universal health care that's been decoupled from employment, and a social safety net for seniors?

[GGT]

Just to nitpick police and teachers are both important, but in asymmetrical ways.

If a teacher gets sick, then a sub is called in to take over. If they are on strike there is no one to take over.

Depends on the state and their "teacher requirements". PA has a large number of subs from the private sector we call Guest Teachers. They don't have the same registration as professional teachers, but they do have to have a degree + experience + certification.

If they go out on strike even for a couple of days, massive hits to productivity can occur as parents scramble to find care for younger kids (or just stay home, using up PTO, or taking a hit on their job if they don't have any left (or didn't have it to begin with). And if by some miracle they do find care (and it would be as a lot of day cares do NOT take impromptu or non scheduled customers), then they have to pay through the nose for that care...possibly wiping out any gains for going to work to begin with.

Also true. Who doesn't suffer this time-off-work-to-pay-for-kids-at-home-unexpectedly? The same workers who don't suffer when their child gets sick and has to stay home for a day or two, or a week (even Day Care can refuse sick children)---those with extended family or close friends or neighbors. Aunts or Uncles, Grannies or Gramps, the retiree next door or down the street, all of whom practically beg for more time with the kids.

The people who "suffer" are those with no relatives or close friends who are at home.

[Flixy]

Because you have universal health care that's been decoupled from employment, and a social safety net for seniors?

Not really, though we do have that. Don't see how t hose would 'force' anyone to join a union, to be honest. It might make it more worthwhile to join one, but doesn't change anything about having to join.

[Aimless]

Most of you probably know that a lot of med-students are stressed, overworked, burned out. These people are impaired in several ways. Notably, their ability to empathize--with patients and colleagues--is markedly reduced. They're more likely to make mistakes. They frequently don't have the energy to do any more than the bare minimum required of them, if even that. They make ethical slip-ups. They don't cooperate as well with others.It's not just about fuzzy feelgoods. Doctors who feel like shit and who can't empathize perform worse in several ways. The doctors suffer, but so do the patients. Anyone who cares about patients should therefore care about the well-being of doctors. Only a person who's more interested in punishing doctors than in safeguarding patients would dispute this.

Anyone who's ever experienced long-term stress or burnout knows how difficult it is to empathize with other people, to connect with others, to summon up the motivation and the energy required to do more than the bare minimum, etc. Anyone who's been a student knows how stress and burnout can affect studies. Anyone who's worked knows how well they perform when they feel like shit. Anyone who is a parent, or knows parents, knows how stress and burnout can affect the time with the kids. Anyone who has a partner knows. Anyone who has friends knows. Anyone who cares about any of these things should want to avoid having people feel like shit.

Only an idiot, an irrationally angry person, or a liar with an agenda attributes stress and burnout and the like exclusively to the victim. Sure, some people may be inherently more vulnerable than others, but the truth is that a lot of things contribute. Bad leadership, for example. Shitty organisation. All work and no play. Poor health. Personal crises. Financial hardship. Many of these things can and should be addressed. They're unnecessary. They can often be fixed.

Now, RB, if you really do think education is more important than your various grudges, you'd consider these things. I think education is very important, which is why I'm interested in having happy teachers who can enable all the things you say you appreciated so much in your own schooling. I know that happy teachers connect better with their students. I know that happy teachers are more willing and better able to go the extra extra mile. I know that happy teachers are more creative and more effective.

If you really think that education is important, then don't let your grudges and your belligerence cloud your judgement. Distance yourself from the absolutely inexcusably retarded interpretations you've presented in this thread (thank you Khen for explaining eg. that a kid doesn't become braindead if he misses school for a day). Take a sabbatical far from the spreadsheets and rejuvenate whatever vestiges of empathy you have left so that you can have more reasonable views on eg. teachers. If you have difficulties, pretend that a strike is a war and pretend that the issue is at least as complex as global warming.





Every single teacher and teaching student I've ever known has seen their profession as a calling. Almost all of them knew at an early age that they wanted to teach, and they chose the profession because they wanted to teach more than they wanted to do anything else. That's almost a given, considering how little prestige and authority teachers have had for the past few decades, and also considering how fucking rough it can be to be a teacher.

I've had the great fortune to know some fantastic teachers, but even they feel the pressures of working in broken and unhealthy organisations, the pressures of uncertainty, the pressures of life. I want them to have whatever they need in order to be happy while they do their thing. If they need to strike to get it (an extreme measure which few teachers would resort to unless they were deeply unsatisfied and for good reasons) then that's what they should do.

If their employers can't or won't give them the means to do a fantastic job then they need to look out for their own interests--which includes teaching well. Education should be defended by people who'd rather go on strike than to leave a profession they love in the hands of assholes and incompetent managers.

[Aimless]

I'd love to you struggle in school when you realize that your 100% plan won't work because, oops, this lesson was a firedrill and, damn, half the class is ill from something or other and, oh no, someone forgot to tell you about the field trip and, for heavens sakes, you estimated this lesson only to take two hours and now it will take four because you forgot something.

The best presenters and lecturers don't set aside time for questions. The US federal budget has a lot of fat.

[Loki]

Every single teacher and teaching student I've ever known has seen their profession as a calling. Almost all of them knew at an early age that they wanted to teach, and they chose the profession because they wanted to teach more than they wanted to do anything else. That's almost a given, considering how little prestige and authority teachers have had for the past few decades, and also considering how fucking rough it can be to be a teacher.

I've gone to decent public schools, and I can safely say that half the teachers did the bare minimum. It's not a coincidence that the people with the worst graduate school standardized test scores (GREs) are education majors.

[Aimless]

I've gone to decent public schools, and I can safely say that half the teachers did the bare minimum. It's not a coincidence that the people with the worst graduate school standardized test scores (GREs) are education majors.

I realise that my own experiences may not be representative of all teachers. I did say I was talking about fantastic teachers if half the teachers are doing the bare minimum at a school then something is wrong at that school. Why aren't those teachers developing and doing better with time? What's getting in their way and what do they need to improve?

[Loki]

Why should they? Plenty of people get into the field for the benefits, job security, and long vacations. I'm not saying they hate teaching, but it's not the main reason they chose their profession.

[Aimless]

Why should they?

Because it's fun when it works? Because it's really nice to feel like you're doing well? Because they've the benefit of great leadership that encourages and development, helps them identify new and fun ways to develop, and gives them a great deal of autonomy? I don't think it has to be a calling for a person to do more than the bare minimum, although I'll concede that one person may be very different from the next wrt motivational factors. But I've seen teachers activate almost hopeless students so I reckon even hopeless teachers can get better ;p

[Loki]

And they probably think it's even nicer to get home at 3 PM, grade homework for an hour, and then have the rest of the day off, coming the next day with their lesson plan from a decade ago.

[Ominous Gamer]

long vacations? I've never talked to a teacher, or anyone who wanted to be a teacher, who treated the summer as a vacation

At least, I assume you are referring to summers, since I'm unaware of them getting bragtastic amounts of vacation time. I know that type of vacation day never entered the conversation when that was my career path.

[Loki]

Yeah, no one wants 2+ months to either rest or work another job (or same job) for extra pay.

[Ominous Gamer]

The bad teachers were usually the ones who took their money as they worked. So they weren't bringing in a paycheck during the summer. There is no "extra" pay. Its moonlighting to cover bills. Basically poor planners all around.
Wasn't the summer used an excuse in a previous thread for why teachers get paid poorly when comparing yearly salaries?

Good teachers would spread out their pay. So while they may have been pulling in a steady paycheck, they were good teachers, and hardly treated the summer as vacation. You've got seminars, book ordering, lesson planning. 2 months to plan out 10 months of work.

[littlelolligagged]

The best teacher either of my kids have had (that would be my daughter's 5th grade teacher, and Icky should admit that she was exceptional since he's seen some examples of my daughter's progress this year) would prefer for summer vacations to be shortened greatly - as close to year round school as possible. Couple of weeks in December, couple of weeks in July, and a spring and fall break suitably spaced out.

That's dedication. If you see vacation time as a reason to teach you should probably pick another profession. Trophy wife, perhaps?

[Loki]

How did we go from the rationale of "bad" teachers" to anecdotes about the logic of "good" teachers?

[littlelolligagged]

Simple. You say the vacation time is a benefit, I say that's a sign of a bad teacher.